I have trained in a few styles and generally got fed up and left because most instructors that I had either used their art for competition or as a vehicle to dabble in and peddle out shoddy examples of MMA and kickboxing for that fast buck, which only succeeded in taking their attention away from the quality and meaning of their core art. I wanted a style that was what it was mean't for. I found a Choy Li Fut school and gave it a go. However after having attended a class in Choy Li Fut it left me a bit confused as I just didn't get it, so I have immersed myself on the internet to research this style. I have looked on youtube and read pages and pages on the net and discovered that there is differences between the lineages. I didn't even know there was lineages! So far I have seen some amazing videos on youtube and I have seen some horrendous ones also. I have read a lot of comments on various sites which oftentimes suggest that Doc Fai Wongs interpretation of the style is the least functional in combat and I have also read that this style was taken to Thailand and came away unbeaten. However I don't know enough about the style or lineages to comment but there is clearly a noticeably variation in standard from what I've seen online. All I can comment of is from what I have seen, and I have watched some instructors that do look shocking at first glance while some look amazing. Sifu Wong XinHui for example looks the dogs bo**ocks in his forms. Can anyone please tell me the differences in the lineages. Thanks in advance
I can attempt to clarify. There are 3 basic lineages. Chan family, Hung Sing and Buk Sing. Many argue which is the original but that is for another discussion. The biggest thing you will notice is that Buk Sing only has a small number of forms (3-4 I think) , has some added northern kicks and emphasizes use/practice/sparring to develop skills. Chan family and Hung Sing have a huge number of sets and the skill levels (fighting) of the instructors might vary quite a bit. All three lineages are noted for their use of trademark swinging long arm (as well as short arm) techniques and the panther fist strike (a fist with the knuckles bent everywhere but at the point where the fingers connect to the hand). There are many on here that are better qualified than myself at describing CLF to you... my system practices a Toisaniese variation that is probably more along the lines of Hung Sing. (oops I sort of heard of the fourth branch mentioned in the article above but I know little/nothing about it) Hope that helps a bit. LFD
The Bak Sing and Futsan Hung Sing lines both place a HUGE emphasis on the longarm techniques. The Jiangmen line from Chan On Pak is more balanced, but still fairly straightforward, the King Mui/Xinhui line from Chan Koon Pak via Chan Yiu Chi is the most fluid of them all, utilising a variety of large and small movements. LFD, the Toisan stuff from master Chan appears to come from someone who trained with both Chan Koon Pak and Chan On Pak. You need to take a lot of stuff written about Doc Fai Wong online with a pinch of salt. Laughably the no good for fighting stuff is based on forms performances Doc Fai Wong places a very different emphasis in forms training than most, highlighting correct body movement in completed motions with power clearly expressed in each movement, as opposed to the fast flurries of techniques you see from a lot of people. The criticism very obviously doesn't come from anyone who's done any kind of application training with him. Much of the criticism comes from one man, who honestly has some of the worst Kung Fu I have ever seen, who has a very definite agenda.
Doc Fai Wong and Chen Yong Fa are the major players in the CLF world, and Doc Fai Wong has a much higher profile in the US, so people will inevitably look to criticise, because that's just how some people are. Some years ago Doc Fai Wong actually published a cloumn addressing some of the online criticisms. http://www.plumblossom.net/Articles/Inside_Kung-Fu/Jan2003/index.html
Three original core forms, some were added later on, depending on your lineage/teacher. Some don't even teach three forms these days and mostly focus on sparring and drills. The northern stuff came by way of Ku Yu Cheong and his exchange of students with Tarm Sarm. My sitaigung Tarm Fei Pang was one of these students. The most basic and important changes is the use of the Peen Sen (side body), Biu Ma (dashing horse), and Tau Lau and Ling Wan Charp Chui. The footwork of Buk Sing is very different than Hung Sing or Chan Family. (not better or worse, just different) All three branches produce fighters and all three branches have useless people. Buk Sing training footage - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnhJNL6E62M&feature=related"]Choy Lay Fut Buck Sing Gwoon pt 10‏ - YouTube[/ame] Hung Sing training footage - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGd4nZIMsFg"]Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association presents - How to Build a Choy Lay Fut Cyborg‏ - YouTube[/ame] You already saw sifu Wong Xinhui who is an amazing martial artist. He is Chan Family. Buk Sing in general places more emphasis on dashing footwork/linear footwork, the heavy usage of the front hand and the leopard/stabbing fist, Hung Sing is famous for its heavy zou ma gwa sau, and Chan Family is the most "complete" branch having the most "traditional" stuff.
Not a dig sifu Ben but how did DFW come into the comment that was related to me? I didn't mention him, his background or anything else related? Or was this related to the OP? TBH I am not sure who are the ''top players'' in the world but I think most CLF people will know about Chen Yong Fa, due to the obvious claims of that family, if for no other reason. Just asking :' ) LFD
It wasn't when I wrote it, it was a new paragraph but for some reason it lost the indent when it published
What I didn't get with some of the videos that I have seen is the block and punch in a low stance, and this is one of the things that confused me. A lot of them looked like they actually had to lean in to block at the opponents wrist and then slide in to punch from the side. To me if you are blocking at the opponents wrist then he is not in range to hit you anyway. I would of thought the blocking range would be at just below the opponents elbow so you can take a half step and get inside their guard and negate further attacks, any further out than that would be kicking range. The general rule of thumb from my experience is from closest to longest range; grappling, hand techniques, leg techniques, weapons. But I saw hand techniques demonstrated at leg and weapons range. Why don't they demonstrate it closer? Or is it how this style works?
This is a thorny subject to tackle without 1) openning several cans of worms that we've been through before and 2) me seeming to be critical of other teachers. Speaking for myself I always emphasise range control when teaching striking, and I'd seldom teach a bridge application in a deep stance from an unattached position. In close I'll usually bridge either to the mid forearm or the bicep, depending on what I'm doing. At range I will bridge to the wrist, but I also aim to make the bridge pretty redundant with footwork.
And yet you ask for agreement from WC? You cant even get to the second page the same guys here will be knocking WC for just the same reason in a while..
See mel, here s the difference - when a question is asked of CLF they attempt to reply with reasoned argument and videos illustarting the points When someone questions chun people like yourself throw a hissy fit, never clarify anything or post appropriate video examples - it is not an anti-chun conspiracy so grow up
Like Ben said it's a tricky subject. The main thing you have to understand is that first all three branches are quite different today, all three have unique strategies and concepts that are not always 100% in agreement with each other, or may be conflicting. This is not a matter of necessarily one is better or worse but the historical realities caused different founders or elders to develop in different directions. First I don't know exactly what you mean by "block at the wrist and lean in a low stance." If you can post a video showing what you're describing that would be great. I am going to ASSUME this is something like our "chuen sao, charp chui." What this technique is several layers: 1. Chuan Sao, is like a block that shoots up and out. I guess you can call it a "crane wing" kind of block. This is a legitimate seeking out bridge, this is not a cover/block guard. Use depending on situation, of course. The concept is to intercept their attack and initiate your own. 2. The second and most important part comes with the footwork, in the case of this technique you use the "biu ma" (dash). We mostly fight off southpaw, so in this case if the left hand is blocking (chuan), then the footwork is simultaneously shifting toward the right. This first shifts your body out of the way a little bit, and allows you to dissipate some of the incoming force. It's like moving and blocking and dashing into him at the same time. 3. The charp chui (stabbing punch) is like a heavy jab and is the most obvious part of the technique. Punching people is easy. Getting the footwork, timing, and technical proficiency down is the hard part. I want to address about "low stances" and whatnot. Low stances are just one type during a fighting situation, and it should be dynamic anyway. You don't want to go and stay in a low stance, I think everybody will agree on this. Anyway in Buk Sing we don't advocate using low stances in a fighting situation unless you are purposely going for a low blow or maybe trying to slip his high punch then go low at the same time (yes we have slipping like in boxing, i guess it's not as developed by that's beside the point). In this case yes the "low stance" is not a bad thing, but of course after you strike (or maybe you fail to strike) you don't want to stay there, you want to raise yourself and keep going (or back off). This is some examples of our block/strike technique. Chuan sao block high, strike high or low Poon sao (like a diagonal block down, hooking) block low, strike high or low. Garn sao (like poon sao but more forceful like hammer them) block low, strike high or low. There are other blocks but these three are basically what is used the most, for me anyway. So you see it is all pretty simple. All the specifics like high/low/distance/depth is just a matter of reacting to real-time stimulus.
