I realize that this was addressed at Kevin, but I would like to answer as well. There are several ways to "solve this problem" - but first, I want to understand what you mean. Why exactly did someone end up having to be compliant? I would like to see your answer, but without putting words in your mouth, I can guess that you may have had one of two possible dilemas. The first issue could have been that you were finding it hard to get to a position where you had the opportunity to do a technique on a resisting partner. There are several remedies to this. To solve this, you would need first need to be sure you simply know enough techniques and can execute them without thinking from any contact point, not just the ones which are in the two person sets (which are basically just kata, or hyung). If that was not the issue then, it may have been the case that you needed to develop the sensitivity to use your partners momentum to postion yourself for a technique. This is probably the most import thing, and this is the thing that you would not learn without some sort of practice that involves movement. Something like BJJ would give you sensitivity that could translate as well. My Hapkido org encourages Judo training for thr same reason, and I personally find that my students with BJJ experience pick this up faster than others. The second problem may have been that you were able to find oppurtunity to do techniques during free practice, but they were uncontrolable -and your partner could not resist for fear of injury. I seem to remember that you study Brazilian Jujitsu,and since I've done a little myself I will make this comparison. Since standing joint-locks come on so fast, they are a little like ankle locks. A beginner in BJJ might not know when to tap if someone is putting on an ankle locks, so many gyms do not allow them unless both participants are advanced. With standing joint lock free practice, your partner has to know when to resist, and when to tap, or -if they can- breakfall over a techniques fulcrum. This requires not only control, but also experience on the part of the techniques receiver to know when to fight a technique and when not to. You would probably also need to alter the angle of some techniques to make them safer, but not as much as you might think. You actually have more leeway than it feels like, as it's harder to break something than most Hapkidoin believe. To carry my hapkido-bjj comparison farther, consider that if you have had trouble putting on, say, an armbar on someone who is resisting, then it is probably for the same reason you would have trouble getting a choke on someone who is curling up in a fetal ball. You would need to create or take advantage of some sort of movement. You would also need to know when to switch to another technique. The technique itself would have the proper leverage once it is in position, but getting to that point would require skill with a moving partner. Once you understand how to create movement, reversals, and breaking balance, it is actually easier to get a lock on a tensed person. Having said that, if this was not your experience with Hapkido I would not at all be surprised, and I would actually be shocked amd amazed, as I believe that no more than 10 percent of dojangs actually teach this way. Also, if you did hapkido and then switched to bjj, then you would probably find that the sensitivity you have from bjj would allow you an easier time of it if you went back and tried getting some of these standing locks now. With all fairness. this type of practice is unsafe unless you really know what you are doing. Without trying to insult your former Hapkido training, I bet that your teacher probably confused the two person numbered sets with actual usable self defense techniques, when they are actually more like one-step sparring or two-person forms. You can imagine doing one-step sparring and then trying free stand-up - so it is likely that you experienced the same thing here. I have not forgotten that you want to see video. I will shoot you a link to my facebook. Send me a friend request and I will give you access to my club's fb page, and have video up there in a week or two.
very good points cz. before going to hyun's hapkido in chicago, i was at another dojang that also encouraged judo training for the very same reasons you mention. one of the problems was that we were flying blind a bit, so to speak. the proprietor of the dojang i was at was dead-set against sparring. so it was up to me and some of the other like-minded black belts to figure this out on our own. i don't take it as an insult to my previous training. i've mentioned before many times that even though now i'm whole heartedly into grappling (bjj/judo/wrestling) and boxing, i learned quite a bit in hapkido and wouldn't change that experience for anything. no one person is perfect as no martial art is perfect. i want to believe that there's always something to learn in any art. and you've alluded to several of the other problems that we faced. while i thought that i was pretty good at shifting gears to other techniques, others were not so good and would make the drills we were attempting less effective at the sensitivity we're talking about. lots of guys would simply just give in or tense up. and i also suspect that now after a couple years of bjj, i'm sure to be better doing these sorts of things in a hapkido environment. like you said, you can figure out the movements and patience needed even against someone that's balled up or tensed up, or simply reverse to something else if the opening is there. no worries about the videos. take your time. i don't have a facebook account any longer. can i access the video without being on facebook? finally i'm wondering how much of these types of drills are built into the art per choi. kevin? cheers guys.
Hi guys, The drill I described is a very basic one for sure. Beginning students are taught from this drill how to feel basic energy reaction. Generally from a wrist grab a static, push or pull type energy is what is being learned. Now in terms of keeping energy going, a primary goal of Choi Dojunim's technique is to nullify energy, if that makes sense, the initial attack energy gages the response. As students progress, the type of attacks can be expanded, as both students should understand how to respond, and protect themselves. From basic wrist techniques, this is expanded to clothing grabs, then strikes, then compound motions, like grab and strike. Hope that makes sense. We are "finished" when the attacker is on the ground or unable to move. Or if someone is put in such a position of off balance they fall on their own. My experience is that if it takes more than two techniques to finish a fight, we are not fighting. As such, if the first technique fails we follow into a second, commonly more aggressive motion to finish. Their are no techniques considered too dangerous to use if both students are well versed in protecting themselves in training. So unlike standard "randori" style training, one person is the aggressor, one the defender. Again, hopefully that makes sense. Now we can't break bones in training, but with proper off balancing locking large joints is pretty easy. In terms of breaking bones, when joints are extended, and the opponent is off balance, breaking even large joints is kind of simple. I will try to think of a way to describe higher level non-compliant training. Good conversation so far.
interesting. kind of aikido like (if you pardon my analogy), get off the line or enter properly to nullify or use that energy for another purpose. i'm sure it takes a lot of practice. great. looking forward to it. it's amazing what can happen when people speak respectfully to each other and try to learn.
Well, we don't really want any of their energy, we want to make it a non-factor then impose our energy... It is, and You know since you are the Chicago area, you and your friends from Hapkido are welcome at any time!!
Kevin- Please elaborate, because I don't think I understand what you mean. First, I assume you mean kinetic energy. Are you saying that in your style you would not blend with someone's movement, but instead stop their movement? How so? In my practice, I might give someone a little pull, and then use their reaction when they pull back to get into a position for a lock. My lock stops their energy, but in order to get there I have to use some of their energy in moving practice. -Thanks, in advance
one of these days kevin, i would love to take you up on your invitation. one, i would love to meet you. two, i'd love to feel the hapkido you espouse so frequently on this site. i already have a friend that has studied at your school (the gentleman in the wicker park mugging video!). and i have mentioned to former-hyun's friends who have since left the school that you operate a hapkido school on the north side.
OK, I hope this makes sense, but we actively try to make their energy or motion if you will, null, for example, and in the easiest stages of learning this, if an opponent "pulls" if we respond with an opposite side diagonal step, the energy is subdued and we are in position to defend. We have as another example a high same side wrist grab, like you are pointing and grabbed at the wrist. If the opponent presses forward, we press back so as to momentarily make their attack have no effect, then we proceed to counter by dropping our energy entirely causing them to become off balanced. Does any of that make sense? We use several different basic motions to make the initial attack energy null so we can apply our energy as a counter. So I would say we do little "blending" and more neutralizing....and yes I understand for the physics people out there that energy cannot be destroyed...
Anytime you would like to come along, it would be my pleasure. You can pm me the name of your friend, not sure I remember...and Wicker Park has again become a hot bed of criminal activity - too many people turning a blind eye too long....glad I'm not there frankly. I have over the years spoken to soooo many people from that school who have learned at times a weird mixed bag of material, but have been so disillutioned when they think that Dojang represents what Hapkido is. Some of the most current members I have met cannot make a simple wrist lock function because what they seem to have learned is more flash than substance. But still happy to try and show anyone the distinct difference.
