[Choi Kwang Do] FAO: Andrew Green

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by LilBunnyRabbit, Oct 31, 2002.

  1. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I’ve lost track of this thread, is it about pain or sparring, because its always mentioned like sparring is painful and the only painful part of martial arts!

    I think I’ve been hurt more times practising drills. Ones with several punches and blocks practised at full speed are fairly high risk. I’ve been hit enough times with them and yes pain ouch. I don’t understand how you can practise drills realistically and not get hurt, ever. I assume you practise them realistically as if someone is being attacked. But even a set attack should be put in with some intent that will put the defender at potential risk if not done properly. Otherwise you aren’t preparing for a realistic attack!

    When I think of sparring I don’t think of pain, sparring covers a wide variety of training. From very slow, totally no risk to near full contact. And I have practised the full range. If you want to avoid pain, the safer sparring is still essential in my opinion. Sparring isn’t just about testing techniques as many people mention! The more important side is learning to instinctively use the right technique against non-prearranged attacks. And likewise using attacks to weaken the opponents attacks etc. This takes a lot of sparring to learn and will never be learnt through drills.

    And I’ve also done a lot of grappling even a decent stint at Judo to improve my skills, but I rarely feel safe fighting on the ground. If you want to avoid being on the ground, the best way is to learn to grapple. Plus, grappling isn’t just ground, half of grappling is standing! Anywhere from a simple arm grab. I once put someone on the floor with a grappling move and walked off (I did not run!). I would advise you do more grappling, can tell you haven’t done much from the getting tired comment. That happens using strength instead of technique. Its useful to know how to let your opponent tire themselves out!
     
  2. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

    hmm PGM i think i agree with u..about relationship b/w sparring n pain...
    one thing about grappling...it's common misconception about grappling styles that they always go to the ground, but from my point of view(from Indian wrestling) grappling deals with on ground as same as for off ground...wat they don't deal with is strike(kickin/punchin) if u r grapplin with grappler then i think there's no chance of wearing out while grappling cause i hav felt that grapplers use all those Taichi classisc(remember 4 ounce theory), more about controlling ur own center n others(without knowing this by grappler cuz most of them r illiterate)
    nuff said...
    -TkdWarrior-
     
  3. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    We do standup, we don't do groundwork.

    As for the intent thing we don't spar, but we do have defense drills, which are trained realistically. The only difference is that we're trying to help each other train more than we are trying to beat the other person, and the drills are one sided, so one person attacks for a while, then change.
     
  4. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Try telling that to somebody that has just wrestled you to the floor. I'd rather fight standing up, its just a matter of being prepared.


    "Trained realistically" yet you never feel pain, something doesn't add up for me.

    Maybe the one side attack drills are more effective than people are giving you credit for. But an attack where you help them instead of trying to beat them doesn't sound like a realisitc attack.
     
  5. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    Aahhhhhhhggggggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This debate is going nowhere - We do spar, in a way (we learn to defend using defence drills, then to learn to attack we use shield/focus mitt drills) we just don't call it sparring cos it's not sparring in the usual way.
    Yes we do it different, we do try to do it without pain especially for newcomers but as you get more experience it gets rougher and tougher.
    A defence drill is someone continuously attacking you(in a small space,not much room)you then have to deal with it by blocking -angling off, as you get more experience you get to counter attack and then take down the opponent. It's DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    As for pain i've recieved a smack in the mouth on occasion or even a kick to the ribs - .....SH*T HAPPENS, but we try to minimalize it.

    In fact i had a kick to the jaw from CKD student when we met and "sparred" for the first time, My fault for not blocking properly...LOL
     
  6. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Oh I didn't mean to imply that everyone practices Tai Chi like that. I know there are people who practice it as a realistic martial art. But most people in this country practice it as a health exercise only (essentially rather fancy looking qi gong). Then there are a smaller number of people who practice in the same way but delude themselves into thinking they are learning a practical martial art, and then there are an even smaller number who do actually practice it as a functional martial art.

    I practice Yang 24 step and Cheng Man Ching. I'm not particularly good at either.

    Mike
     
  7. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor

    Re: FAO: Andrew Green

    Uh, ok, my point i was trying to make is that if your on the floor in come club, alley, anyhwere really.. You want to get up off of the floor as soon as possible. If someone is on top of you you want to get them off and get away ASAP. In a dojo, you can lie down all night and get technical, not tireing yourself out straight away. In a fight, your struggling against another person, trying to get the advantage over your opponent, and that opponent is struggling against you as well, you loose energy. If your on the floor in a real fight situation, then you want to get up as quickly as possible, not "spend a lot more time rolling around on the floor then I could going full contact continuous"

    So yes, in a dojang, if you both want to practice groundwork, its not tiring. When you practice groundwork trying to get the advantage over the other , you tire quickly.



    Yes! I have seen my female students generate an awsome amount of power and speed in their techniques, more than enough to hurt a far bigger person. Also, i was teaching a 6 year old girl how to deal with a stranger grabbing her by the arm and trying to pull her away. She punched me as i had taught her and i wasnt expecting her to make contact... It winded me and i let her hand go. So if a six year old can wind me by hitting me hard, as i taught her, and bare in mind im over 6 foot and weigh 12 stone, then a five foot woman, who has more body weight and reach could hit with sufficient force to hurt someone bigger. (Wouldnt say twice her size, that would mean a guy of 10 foot)


    Um, ok, you may have decided from what you have read on the guestbook its not for you. But you havent experienced any CKD classes so you are basing your decision, not on what you have seen of the art, but of what you have read and misunderstood... Fine, i have no problem with that.

    When i say that its for everyone, i mean that CKD is a practical self defence system that can be used by everyone of any age from 5 to 70+, it doesnt matter on your gender or build, you can learn to effectivly defend yourself.

    On the other hand, from your training techniques, i would say taht from what i have read, there are sections of your class where it is only practical for a small sample of the population to use effectivly (male, 15 -40). Im not saying that everything you do isnt going to work for everyone, but some of it is biased towards that sample of people. So i wouldnt say (From what i have read in the messafe board and your web site :)) that what you teach is 100% suitable for everyone no matter their age, gender or build.

    I looked at a dictionary definition of grappling at dictionary.com

    It lsited grappling as "A struggle or contest in which the participants attempt to clutch or grip each other"

    So i dont teach my students how to struggle or grip the other person. I teach them how to get out of these situations using basic, easy to learn techniques.

    So, No, i dont "DO" grappling.


    OK, so you are telling me that whether you are on the floor with someone on top of you, or even if you are on top of that person on the floor, that you are not more vulnerable to an attack from a 3rd person than you owuld be if you were stood up and MOBILE!!!

    There is no situation on the floor, where you are less vulnerable to an attack from a 3rd person. If you believe that, then you have some weird ideas about being safe on the floor.

    When did i say that you shouldnt know how to get out of situations??? I havent, i have different philosophies on defending myself than you do. I believe that mine are practical for EVERYONE to use, i dont think yours are.

    As for mounted position, see the reply above.


    When have i ever said that you will always be alone and they will always have friends?? I believe that you always have to bear in mind the fact that a 3rd party can come out of nowhere to attack you and so your defence philosophies should reflect that. Whether you go out alone, with friends, whatever, you have to train and get the mentality that it isnt a competition or boxing match, there is nothing stopping a complete stranger to both of you interfering in some way.

    Also, you may start off with your friends, but people do get seperated from their friends from time to time. If im in a club and im drinking, i need to use the bathroom after a while. If someone wants to get me without my friends, thats the best time to do it as i dont want my friends with me in the bathroom. Doesnt mean that someone who wants to attack you cant get a load of people with him and get you then.


    Like your humor, but i dont feel that you have answered my point that your training methods cause your students pain. You admit it yourself in your many posts that "Pain" is good in ways for your students.


    Finally, someone said that there are grandmasters who have got to 80 and 90 with training. Maybe they train differntly to the many other instructors in the world. As some people said, there has been misunderstanding by instructors which has lead to techniques being taught in a damaging way. But thats our point. These instructors are ignorant of the damage that thay are causing their students and are STILL teaching them. I was in a Kickboxing class the other day and his students were doing techniques that are going to ruin their knee joints in a few years. The instructor himself has only just some back from an operation on both of his knees. His reason for his knees needing an op? He blames the techniques that he was taught in TKD along with the fatc that as he also does "Cage Fighting" people have had him in locks and kicked him at the knee and its taken its toll.

    And another thing to consider with the 80 - 90 year old grandmasters. How much has their lifestyle contributed to their longevity?? If they didnt smoke and eat a typical japanese diet for many years, before all of this processed stuff was adding other toxins to their body, then its hard to compare them to us as we not only cause our body harm with training, but also by our lifestyles.

    And just beacause soem people make it to old age with good health, doesnt mean that their training hasnt had a detrimental effect on their overall health. my grandfather lived to 93, and smoked for over 75 years. He didnt die of cancer. doesnt mean that smoking isnt bad for your health though, or that it can reduce your longevity. The same applied to the traditional arts that the Grandmaster pracitce. Hundreds of people get injured through their traditional marital art training. The techniques have caused damage to many peoples joint (Our grandmaster was one until he CHANGED the way he trained) Maybe, the technique got perverted from its original way over the years, but that way has spread around the world and has caused injuries to many people.

    Im not, and never have said that every traditional instructor is the same. There are a few people who change the way they teahc to benefit their students and i applaud that. But there are many more who dont and have never changed their training methods from this flawed version.

    I hope i have made my point
     
  8. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Re: Re: FAO: Andrew Green



    Your well and trully missing the point, to get up off the floor you need to spend a long time on it learning to grapple. Regardless of how you actually plan to fight. A good grappler will play with you on the floor as long as they like! They will also get one over on you or get up whenever they please and without tiring quickly.

    You shouldn't take this as a personal insult or that somebody is condemning what you do. Or even that they misunderstood what you say. No martial art will ever suite everybody or the way they want to train.

    Fair enough I can agree with that. I'm assuming if I did CKD I wouldn't be training the same way as 5 year olds or 70+ years olds!? I can't imagine that really pushing me as a martial artist.

    We're I train it is suitable for 5-70 years like you mention. But it is broken up into classes for people to practice in various ways. Its possible to spar there in classes in a totally non dangerous ways. Although if you choose you can train more realisticaly we're you will frequently feel pain. People often forget there learning to fight, and fighting does hurt. Ok you may class it as self defense, but in my eyes theres a very fine line between the two.

    Sorry but basic easy to learn techniques won't work against a decent grappler, trust me I've tried and I've done Judo for many years. Try reading a book on BJJ instead of dictionary.com

    Being on the floor with someone on top is a very bad situation to be in and could take some good grappling skill to get out of. If your on top you could end it quickly from there. Although fighting on the ground is something I advise against very much, I've seen the consequences of the 3rd person joining in all to often. However ending up on a ground position may happen anyway, and I hope your capable of handling it. For me being safe on the ground is having good grappling abilities to get me back on my feet again.

    I can only speak from my point of view, our students do occasionally feel pain. The occasional punch that gets through while sparring or drills etc. Probably a lot more frequently while grappling, or how else would you know a lock etc is working?

    I believe the body feels pain a long time before damage is done, thats how it protects itself from damage. I have felt a lot more pain grappling, however no noticable damage. I always tap out before that happens. I have had more damage sparring but the less pain. The damage being caused in a more instant way. But thats been the way I've wanted to train, I've learnt a lot and I'm still in one piece :)

    I think you worry too much about pain, it is good in the way you get used to it, I've seen people go to pieces after being hit and thye haven't be injured particularly.

    I agree you have to be sensible in the way you train. I avoid some of the traditional Kung Fu styles we practice because I feel its not good for my knees. Likewise running round in a small gym isn't good for the knees. Other people claim to have no problem. Maybe its just a case of listening to what your body is telling you. Its about having a good all round healthy life style, not about feeling the odd little bit of pain here and there.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2002
  9. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    pgm - I have a question. You said your classes are divided for people to learn in different ways, i.e some violent , some not so violent.
    What are the people in the class that theres "not so much violence" learning? Are they not learning effective self defence?

    Is the more violent method way of teaching/learning more effective than the other and if so, why teach the other way?

    You already said "because some people want to learn the less violent way"

    But WE teach that way, yet we are taking flak for doing it!

    hmmmm........................what are we debating then?
     
  10. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    We don't refer to it as a violent night, more an advanced night. For people more skilled or want to train more realistically. Although its not about fighting harder, more about practising more advanced techniques or occasionally it is training in a more realistic way. Often its just a case of doing the same thing the beginners do more realistically. I find when people have been training for years they want there opponent to put attacks in harder to test them because they can cope with it without a great risk of injury. Then yes there is the dreaded sparring were we fight until the opponent is either unconscious or begs for mercy ;) No, actually the sparring is often less dangerous than the drills. Theres different sorts of sparring we do. Some totally non-competitive right up to some we’re you may very well get a couple of bruises. Have you ever played football or for that matter rugby?

    Or you could spend a couple of hours doing Tai Chi. Really depends what you want to get out of your training. I’m sure Choi is ideal for many people. I don’t think its for me, or the tai chi. Not to say either doesn’t have its place, same as what I do.
     
  11. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    I (personally) agree that sparring doesn't have to be painful or dangerous.
    We (CKD) actually have the same mentality - i bet if CKDists met up with the members, i bet you/they/us would find that what we do isn't actually that strange and everybody would understand (each other) a little better.
    The knowledge is much the same, just practiced in a different way.
     

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