[Choi Kwang Do] FAO: Andrew Green

To avoid hijacking the wrist injuries thread any further than I already have (apologies people) I will respond to your post here. I was going to make it a private message, but it was some five thousand characters too long.

Pain is a sign that you are being injured, that's what its there for. If you choose to be macho and ignore it, and turn out to be okay, lucky you. I have seen too many people injured while practicing 'safe' grappling or striking arts to accept that.

Yes, like you say. We just have a different opinion of too hard. We work with focus mitts, and interruption drills where the mitts counter, but only when the students can handle it without being hit repeatedly in the head, body or legs. Our mitt drills are not static, they are dynamic, we move around. The mitt holder switches the targets. We make it as realistic as possible without anyone getting hurt.

So then the mitts where you can demonstrate that you can land a blow on a small target moving at speed don't prove anything either I suppose? If a kick knocks you back three feet after the shock travels through compressed foam, and its fast enough and accurate enough to hit a focus mitt, you can be fairly sure that it will be effective. At least as sure as you can be rolling around on a mat with someone else trying to grab each other's throats.

No, but would you like one of them to whack you with a baseball bat? They're not training to be stickfighters, they're training to hit things hard and fast, and I doubt that if one of them did go for you with a bat and connect that you'd be standing at the end.

I'm talking about training in class here, not personal training outside.

pquote]
When you spar you learn to do what works and to avoid getting hit/locked/thrown/etc. You learn to attack at angles which are hard to defend and learn to defend against them as well. If haymaker punches where effective and hard to defend they'd show up in sparring. They aren't and they don't. But you will see things come from a similar angle, just more refined and harder to stop. So if you train regularly with trained people trying to exploit your weaknesses it should give you a significant head start against a untrained person with unrefined technique.
[/quote]
Unlike us who train regularly with people but while targeting our punches at each other wear protective mitts and practise distance control?

Its not something you ever want to go through. There are only two people in any school that I train at regularly who could stop me hitting them if I really wanted to. Now what possible benefit would it be to either me or them if I did? Even if you train with sparring, the first time you get attacked by a random stranger on the street is going to shock you, getting hit won't really make much difference to that shock. Besides, we teach people to dodge and block with their arms rather than their heads.

We don't spar, we do train against each other. There is a difference. As for lashing out at traditional styles I do not believe that I, or any other Choi student on this board have ever done that in an unjustified manner. If I were to tell you that I was teaching students to throw a punch straight out and lock their arm out as an effective technique, would you correct me, or let me continue to risk my student's health and safety?

Again, I agree. Which is why we train to be able to land a close-fisted jab.

 

Re: FAO: Andrew Green

Oversimplification. There are different levels of pain and pain does not always mean you are injured.

Good, but you're still just punching pads. Why assume that sparring is so dangerous? It doesn't have to be. Most of the serious injuries I've seen have not had anything to do with sparring, they occured doing very "safe" and simple activities. Not just in the martial arts, but everywhere.

Should we not use ladders cause of risk of injury? walk down stairs? Walk outside in the winter? walk anywhere at all? Drive a car?

Martial arts are a physical activity, with that comes an element of risk of injury. Same with any physical activity.

Same as a baseball player.

Please attend a few grappling classes, even just watch a video, do something before telling people what grapplers do without knowing what it is they do.

But by your own admission that is all that you are doing, training to hit a moving target with some level of force. So does that mean your not training to be a martial artist?

Now here's the question:

Would I rather stickfight a baseball player or a Dog Brother?

hmm...

Is it a trick question?

So am I.

Hold on, it sounds like you're saying you spar with gloves here, but I don't think thats what you meant...

Nope, If you fight you get hit. You can't possibly block everything that comes at you.

You just have a funny definition of train against each other.

Traditional styles do X
X is bad for you
therefore traditional styles are bad for you

Thats about what you do. Problem is 99% of traditional styles don't do X. In many cases you also don't have any evidence that X is in fact bad for you.

No, you said you don't spar.

 

I've done six months of jujitsu and a couple of aikido, or are those not grappling classes?

Your argument was that our training was not effective because we didn't train to hit moving targets with force, now you're admitting that we do, and so for some reason have altered your argument to whether we train to be some indefinable thing called a martial artist.

I've mentioned defense drills before. White belt level, straight lines, target punching, no contact at all, exchange drill.

White belt senior - static blocking of inwards and outwards punches, one person blocks, other person punches.

Yellow belt junior - straight lines, contact blocking, no contact with blows, slow pace, one person attacks, other defends, then switch at command.

Yellow belt senior - free moving, contact blocking, no contact with blows, one person attacks, other defends, then switch at command.

Green belt - one attack three to five counters, defend against the initial attack and counter with three to five techniques, then switch who's attacking. Free moving. Hands up, kiyap control

Purple belt - stopping kicks, partner makes a rushing movement, throw a stopping kick towards them (no contact, don't want broken ribs) and follow up with three to five hand techniques.

Black belt - technically both of the above two, often other things thrown in as well.

Hence the dodge. I'll agree you can't avoid everything, but you can avoid enough to counter. In most cases all you need to dodge or block is the initial rush, then you can counter.

Nice that you know this having no idea of how we train.

If its the truth then what's the problem. I'd say actually about 50% of styles do X, and 60-70% do some form of X, judging by the schools I've visited and seen. As for the evidence how about the fact that people who train in that form do often get injuries and problems with their joints?

Locking out - how much evidence do you really need to prove it jars the joint? Its well known that you can get RSI by simple actions like typing, because the joints are jarred repeatedly, so punching and locking out with force will do the same.

Partner stretching - look at any professional dancer or gymnast in their later years, and ask them how their joints are. Many will have problems, partly brought on through overwork, and overstretching.

Sparring - you've got two people trying to hit each other. Throw in a macho beginner desperate to prove themselves and you will get a problem.

Taking your baseball analogy. You can learn baseball two ways, jump in when you start and start hitting baseballs, or start slower hitting, say, gently tossed tennis balls until you get the hang of it. Then while you're doing that you have someone watching your swing and checking the biomechanics. Once you've got the hang of that you can move up to hitting faster tennis balls, and then one day you can go and play baseball.

 

You’ve both made good points, in reality you’d probably agree on 90% of things. I think what you need is a referee. I’m sure I’m not the person as I cause more arguments than settle them

I’m not sure we’re the traditional x thing is going. I can’t imagine either of you punch by locking joints out, I can’t imagine many styles do that?

Jujitsu as grappling? depends on finding a good club, I’ve been to two and neither had a high standard of groundfighting, I felt like a better groundfighter simply with my knowledge of Judo. Had some good “realistic” sparring though. Starting in a standing position with gloves, which were removed if it went to the ground. As the sparring got realistic I inevitably felt some punches and lost some blood. You might think this unnecessary! But I feel its as much of the learning process as drills etc.

Like you say, the baseball player can hit hard, how would he know he was any good if he didn’t play baseball!? My theory is, its important to learn to play the game, but you must occasionally play it to find out if you can! If your training is working or do you need change. I'm not talking about throwing a macho begginer into the equation, you've got to train and build up to it gradually.

I think a lot of depends on your goals. If you want to become a good fighter you have to train realistically and theres no doubt along the way you will get hurt and definitely feel pain. You’ve just got to be sensible and know your own limitations, or else you will be frequently feeling a lot of excruciating pain and that’s not a good thing. Pain in varying degrees is all part of training realistically, you get used to it and also taking hits without going to pieces, which truly does happen. It should make you more confident, you won’t be as scared if somebody threatens to hurt you! Just remember people playing games like baseball will often feel a lot more pain than we do, and we’re supposed to be the brave ones!

 

I don't want to be a good fighter, I want to learn self-defense, the same goes for my students. If they want to fight they can go to one of the other local classes, we teach them to defend themselves.

Before people say that you can't do that either without some pain, could anyone with that particular objection please explain why our method does work?

 

To defend yourself in a fight, I thought you need to be a good fighter.

When you say pain, do you mean you never feel any pain at all!? This would really surprise me, I can understand avoiding injury, but you can feel pain long before that happens.

 

>"I don't want to be a good fighter, I want to learn self-defense, the same goes for my students. "
HMMMM. that's rite motivation...
as far as avoiding injuries
look we do lots of sparring in our club without groin protector, without gloves, without shin pads no nothing...
then in around 20 yrs history only 2 or 3 serious enjuiries...that too was mistake from those ppl by themselves...
why? i dunno we normally hav black eyes, some blood from noses,
brusises in shins n forearms ... they don't hurt much... when u know how ur blood taste in ur mouth... it'll add to the strength..u urself try to avoid that...
in sparring we don't allow anyone to go for KILL or any serious injuries, sparring we do basically for lots of practice
<<there r three kinds of sparring in TKD basically
prearranged
-> 3 step->alone or with person,
2 step
n 1 step
then comes
Semi Free goes with rules can be with multiple partners
free->1:1 or 1:2 or 2:2 or more combinatin
sparring is there to promote fighting spirit and courage, to train the eyes to read the opponents tactic as well as manuevers, to test his/her own skills n capability...>>
excerpts from the Encyclopedia of TKD V volume deals with Matsogi(sparring)
if u can not do it in controlled conditions then wat chance u hav got in uncontrolled ones

-TkdWarrior-

 

The worst I've ever seen in class is a few bruises (very rarely on anyone other than black belts), and one bloody nose. That's in nine years. I've also heard stories, from parents (with the kids) and students (with the adults) of times they've needed to use it, fortunately few and far between, and its worked. We've never had anyone come in and say that they needed to use it and it failed.

Pain hurts. Its something to avoid.

 

look we do lots of sparring in our club without groin protector, without gloves, without shin pads no nothing...

myself or my mates or my teacher can't afford to spend money on anything, we hav only spend time n that's too lots of it...
n one thing more...
ppl who hav created those aspects of MA why u r avoiding them??
let's say if someone wants to learn some aspects which u hav hacked away wouldn't be that sad situation for a student?
yup he can learn from somewhere else...but after learning from u, his thinking would be rigid...
my equation is that "when done properly, all those things r good, they only help u"
-TkdWarrior-

 

People have very different views on training, its interesting to hear peoples various ways and thoughts on it. Really we shouldn't be negative of ways different than out own, theres no wrong way as such, apart from not training at all!

My views are similar to those of Tkdwarrior though. To get the most benefit, I believe its got to be close to what will happen in reality. And that often means pain and a certern risk element involved, unfortunately!

 

So what? I really don't see the relevance here. You spar, and enjoy it, and that's fine. We don't, and we don't get hurt through it, and that's fine.

Because we advocate learning to defend yourself without injury, that's why.

If they want to learn something we don't teach they can go somewhere else. Would you go to a grappling club expecting to be taught how to strike, or a Sport TKD class expecting to learn to grapple and do low sweeps and low kicks? When someone comes to watch our class we explain what we do, the non-injury, non-competition, practical street self defense aspects. They know what they're getting into. And like I said, it works, what more do you need, unless you're going to deliberately go out and try to fight skilled opponents (say in competition) all you need is to be capable of defending yourself on the street. That's what we teach.

I have never, ever have a student say that they want to spar. We just don't get that type of student. We get the people who want to learn to defend themselves without suffering more pain in the class than they would outside.

Maybe. But when done badly, all things hurt and hinder you.

 

Grappling at some level yes. But this was about ground grappling, aikido does not do this at all and many Jujitsu classes don't either.

Same as saying you know something about striking because you attended a few boxing classes. If the discussion is on kicks, elbows, knees and headbutts it may not apply.

But before I guess at what you did, How much time did you spend rolling around on the floor with a opponent trying to positionally dominate and/or submit you while you did the same?

No, I said you don't train to hit moving people.

[/B][/QUOTE]
I've mentioned defense drills before. White belt level, straight lines, target punching, no contact at all, exchange drill.

Purple belt - stopping kicks, partner makes a rushing movement, throw a stopping kick towards them (no contact, don't want broken ribs) and follow up with three to five hand techniques.
[/B][/QUOTE]

sounds like basic one step sparring with overly telegraphed motions "makes a rushing movement". I have never had any broken ribs, and I've taken many kicks to them. A few people I've trained with have gotten them thoughm but its very rare. And I think they where all done in competition, maybe once where they got rebroke in a class.

No, you can't make this claim without actually trying to do it. This is done through sparring and I'd bet that everyone that spars regularly won't make this claim. In a fight, you will get hit.

Attackers don't throw their own strike then stop and wait while you proceed to throw your 3-5 counters.

Training against someone = some form of sparring.

You're trying to hit me, I'm trying to hit you.
You're trying to get a better position, I'm trying to get a better position.
You're trying to make me tap, I'm trying to make you tap.

How many different schools and styles are you knowledgable about enough to make that judgement? How many different styles can you think of that do these things?

Very few do this.

Same for any professsional athlete in any sport, should we just avoid athletics all together?

How much experience do you have sparring? Under what rules? Points/continuous?

But having a hard ball thrown towards you at high speeds is dangerous... and then hitting it back towards them at even haster speeds...?

Baseball players aren't baseball players until they actually play baseball.

 

Let me try once again to show you what I disagree with and why...

Here's a new program I'm developing

Learn to play hockey without Injury!

We don't shoot pucks around, people could get hurt.

We don't allow people to try and steal the puck, could get hit by a stick.

We don't allow checking, MY GOD!!! thats hitting each other!!!

But we do some handing drills, some slow passes with a nerf puck and we shoot at targets, instead of a net with a goalie (He just gets hurt...)

But if you are ever forced into a hockey game these skills will definately give you an edge.

Which they will, having these skills is certainely better then nothing. But the game isn't there.

Trying to use these sort of arguments to convince people to switch to my "safe" version might work on a few people that really don't have a clue what hockey is about. But anyone that has played the game will see that something has gone terribly wrong.

There is nothing wrong with it really, some people might want that sort of training. The problem is when it tries to promote itself as "playing hockey" instead of "doing some hockey related drills for fun and fitness"

Same as tossing a football around, its fine to do, its fun, but its not football. To advertise it as such and have people think they are actually learning football would be deceptive.

Now what you do may be related to fighting, and beneficial to you should you ever end up in a fight. But it is incomplete.

Now you have expressed openly dislike for "traditional" schools of thought in the martial arts. I really don't see how CKD is not a traditional school, except that traditional schools almost always spar in at least some form.

 

yup i gave u why we don't use gaurds n protectors...

yup i hav taught couple of ppl defending themselves n none of them got into injury... but one should know how punch hurts cause even a simple tap on nose can bring down tears in ur eyes

ok cool, in basically our class we hav drawn a good line b/w SD n Sport, our student(i mean my teachers) hav faired well in Competitions n saved themselves in street(including me)
we say we teach TKD that's wat we teach, complete TKD be it sport n SD point of view, our students can easily take on grapplers too(at least they r hard to put down)

i can guess cuz u teach Self Defence...it's ok with me...

that wat i m saying we teach them wat's wrong n wat's rite way to do it... yup i know that it hurts, we too try to avoid that...

one one question which is bugging me ...when CKD teaches only Self Defense then why there is need to hav belts??
one who can do all those techniques/drill effectively
who knows the in n out of techniques..who knows wat goes in mind while fighting can be a teacher...

PS:i teach self defence n that course is about 6 months, which includes mind conditioning(giving rite ideas) with little or less body conditioning...
-TkdWarrior-

 

Sorry to butt in on your discussion chaps but I wanted to make a couple of comments and ask a question.

That's a rather simplistic view in my opinion. Let's refine it a bit. Pain can be a signal that injury is occuring. It can be also be a signal that you are in danger of injury, before the actual injury occurs.

Typically injury is accompanied by pain. However, injury can occur in the absence of pain (eg. with overuse injuries). Also, pain can occur in the absence of injury (eg. neuro/psychological conditions). I can and do regularly cause pain to my students by seizing or pressing on major nerves. As long as this is not done too often (hence becoming an overuse injury) then no permanent damage is done, but the pain can be intense.

Pain is a feature of everyday life, that's how often we damage our tissues, we get accidental scrapes, bumps, burns, cuts, noxious substances into our airways, eyes, etc. Happily though, our bodies have a great capacity for self-repair.

Martial arts by definition are contact activities (or at least they should be). So just as in normal everyday life there will be bumps and scrapes that are well within the body's ability to self-repair. If we go beyond the body's ability to do this, then that's clearly not a good thing. Nobody wants to have permanent and debilitating injuries. But bruises and knocks will repair themselves.

I know you're not fond of grappling and the pain that goes with it, but what about the pain of impact techniques? The compression that your own joints receive when you strike something? Is there no discomfort there, even if only relatively minor?

Given that you confess to only 6 months study in martial arts other than CKD, where exactly have you seen all of these injured people?

This is the bit that's not clear to me. Are you saying that in your art/club you avoid the normal knocks and scrapes that go with martial training? Nobody gets the occasional accidental knock to the face? Nobody gets a slightly over-zealous punch to the body? Nobody gets the odd accidental slap to the testicles that leaves them struggling for breath?

Do you really believe that? Yes, sudden (or even not so sudden) violent assault is very shocking. But being struck in the head (or wherever) is also very shocking, dramatically compounding the effect of the assault. I've observed that there are 2 types of people in this regard - a minority who ignore the pain and shock, and just deal with the assault, and the majority who, as soon as they are hit, want to curl up into a ball and cry for their mam.

Have you ever been clipped on the nose? It makes you cry. It becomes more difficult to see. Your first reaction is to wipe the tears from your eyes. That's the wrong reaction! The right one is to ignore it and carry on regardless. You have to be able to ignore pain and discomfort and just get on with the job in hand. Now how do you learn to do this? You de-sensitise yourself to the pain and discomfort by experiencing it in small doses in training. Nothing beyond the body's ability to repair itself of course, but enough to know you can tolerate and ignore the pain. That way you turn out students whose first reaction when they get hit is to present an attitude of "is that the best you've got?" rather than cracking at the first sign of stress.

I know which sort of student I'd rather have, and I'd feel as though I had failed as a teacher if they did not, in time, develop this martial spirit.

Mike

 

>>Pain is a feature of everyday life, that's how often we damage our tissues, we get accidental scrapes, bumps, burns, cuts, noxious substances into our airways, eyes, etc. Happily though, our bodies have a great capacity for self-repair.

that's more like the definition i like...
hey mike i c u r agreeing wiht my nose tap thing...
-TkdWarrior-

 

The jujitsu class was almost entirely groundwork, we did one lesson on stand-up and breakfalls. The aikido on the other hand covered no groundwork, purely breakfalls. I'm not saying this is typical, but this is what I trained in.

I notice you ignore the other defense drills, or just don't want to comment on them, fair enough.

We don't train to pull our techniques in defense drills, only throw fewer of them while training with someone junior. So all the techniques we practice are at full power. With that, if they connected, there would be broken ribs and injury.

I've tried it on the street, as well as in slip drills in class. Maybe I should redefine what we do as one-sided sparring, one person attacking, other person defending and looking for potential openings, but not countering.

Out of the schools I've visited the ones that do this include four Tae Kwon Do schools, four Karate schools, one American kickboxing school and one Kung Fu school (which puzzled me somewhat, since I've always thought of Kung Fu as being smooth and flowing, bad teacher I guess). This makes up most of the schools in my local area, as well as a few in other areas. It may just be that I'm in an area with bad teachers for these arts, but this is why I make my claims.

Interestingly we've just had another student defect to Choi, a black belt in TKD who's injured himself practicing the TKD techniques and partner stretching. We had a third dan in Kung Fu (I forget which style, I'll ask) defect a while ago. I know that this isn't conclusive proof, but its some evidence.

As I've said above, most of the ones I've seen do this. It may well just be coincidence, but it should also go to explain why I have the opinion I do.

Not a bad idea. I highlighted dancing and gymnastics since they're traditionally the most damaging, in other sports people tend to quit simply because they're usually past their physical prime and can no longer compete with those younger and fitter.
[quote
How much experience do you have sparring? Under what rules? Points/continuous?
[/quote]
Only a little. We used to grapple at the jujitsu class as a form of sparring starting from a grip. While I was doing TKD sparring was done in most classes for about ten minutes in continuous, and once every fortnight as a contest in point sparring. I have had people try to hit me on the street though, but I guess that isn't sparring.

You can gather all the skills to play baseball before you actually play it. Actually playing it is the best way to practise, but it is dangerous. You can get enough skill to play in an amateur or semi-pro game without playing the game, you just won't be playing in the professional games for a while.

Close, but let me make a few alterations to your program.

We don't shoot pucks at each other, but we do have a variety of targets both moving and stationary for you to practise on

We don't allow people to steal the puck at full speed, until you're ready to handle it, and we have the sticks wrapped in foam and get you to wear padding.

We allow checking, but we'll give you big foam pads to practise with.

We do a lot of handling drills, some very fast passes with a nerf puck, and we shoot accurately at targets.

All we need is for it to work, which it does.

To start with it has a dynamic syllabus which is constantly being tested and improved. We don't compete which a lot of traditional styles do. We don't spar. And we're only about sixteen years old.

We don't teach sport, only self-defense. Well, until you get to high levels when we teach flashy impressive stuff, but no sport.

Because the belts signify how much of the syllabus you know, how long you've spent training in the art, how capable you are. They're also what people expect from a martial art, and lets be honest, there are very few people, particularly entering martial arts, who don't want something physical and colourful to show for their work. I admire those who do, but it doesn't stop me being proud that I was able to earn my belt.

We give someone three blocks, two punches and two kicks to put in their toolbox in the first two months. When they grade they get more tools to add, and more, and more, and so on. Yes they'll probably only use their front kicks and inwards punches, but if they know the others then they've got the option of using them. Also the longer you train the more reactive your techniques will be, and the better you'll become.

Why? I can understand your viewpoint, but I don't see why they should be. At least I don't see why they should be in the sense that you're talking about.

I don't know how you're punching so I can't comment on that, however I, nor anyone else, has ever complained of discomfort when performing their techniques. This is either a justification of the way that we perform our techniques, or its just something that no one has ever noticed in CKD.

I confessed to six months in jujitsu. If you want the full total then there's another eight months in TKD, eight in karate, one in kung fu, one in tai chi, and two in aikido.

In that time I saw one dislocated knee, one dislocated shoulder, two cases of broken ribs, three broken noses, one damaged achilles tendon and three concussions.

In nine years I have seen two bloody noses (people missing the mitts and the holders holding them too close) and one broken foot (hardly counts, someone practicing a jumping kick, leapt up, and for some reason decided to land on the side of their foot, which naturally caused more than a little damage, best bit was he was one of the senior instructors.)

Yes. I've also been hit round the face with a chain, kicked in the groin, and punched in the stomach. It may be that I'm one of the minority who just carry on regardless, but I've never really thought of it being that.

Fair point. I have to say that despite not actually hitting them, our students do develop this attitude. I've seen some of them when they have been hit (outside class), and they've simply worked through. Maybe those students are exceptional, or maybe there's a large factor of confidence in carrying on through when you get attacked, or maybe they've been attacked before, could be anything, but I've seen it happen.

 

feel my ignorance guys wat's concussions??i know this is not rite thread still...
ok Ckdstudent i guess belt thing is good, but when u teach Self Defense(street defense) i guess u don't hav to spent something like ur life on that... u can learn basic punches(jab,roundhouse, hook), basic blockes(mostly reflecting), three kicks(low ones like side kick, front snap kick n i dunno the name of third in English )
stepping movements, wiht some grapplin n groundwork, u don't need more, may be u can add some realistic weapon training(short stick n knife) i guess most ppl doesn't need to put into advance training(except who want to learn n teach)...
i go with this quote "dont' be afraid of the one who knows 1000 techniques but hav done 1 time, but be afraid of those who knows 1 tech n hav done it 1000 times"
i prefer is this way...simplistic approach to self defense... no flashy stuff, no extra movements, straight down to earth approach...
-TkdWarrior-

 

Ah, a good old bit of friendly banter!!!

Carry on guys.

(Puts his feet up and cracks open a bottle of Scotch, while toasting marshmallows and humming tunelessly)

 

We could easily teach the basic self defense stuff in a few months, at the most. However CKD is still a martial art in other senses, its merely one designed for self-defense and based on biomechanical principles. If people want to learn basic self defense then they only need to spend between two to four months in Choi, and yet many people devote years of their lives to it, improving themselves beyond simple self-defense. Same as any other martial art.

As for the 1000 to 1 technique thing, we spend two months on three blocks, two punches and two kicks (counting front and rear versions as seperate punches and kicks). After each grading (minimum time between gradings is two months, usually takes longer) people are then taught one more kick, and one more punch. Their drills are advanced further, and their training becomes slightly harder.