[Choi Kwang Do] CKD Questions

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by KempoFist, Mar 15, 2007.

  1. eedan

    eedan Valued Member

    Oh my. You had to dig for those pictures! Although the 70's 'fro (when he was doing TKD) is a nice touch. Those pictues are not there to indicate inclusiveness, just to inflate the ego of the sr. master who loves to have his pictue taken and posted!!!!!!!
     
  2. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor

    No digging required. Just went to the Kennesaw school web site. Took me all of 2 minutes to find them and another 10 mins to stop laughing at the dodgy hairstyles.

    The point was, if Master P was serious about knocking another instructor for having his pictures taken by other Masters and he seriously felt it was a bad thing then he wouldn't put these ones up on his web site now would he?

    Master P is the kind of person you either really like or cannot stand. So some people tend to blow some of the things he does out of proportion, especially those who have a grudge against him for one reason or the other.

    Personally, I think hes a nice enough guy. He has his heart in the right place when it comes to CKD, but not everyone can deal with his approach or his sense of humor.
     
  3. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor

    Ive been trying to message you over here, but the system wont let me. Drop me a message as I would like to chat to you a little privatley and not over the forum.
     
  4. eedan

    eedan Valued Member

    Oh, yes he would! There is a total disconnect with that kind of logic in a totally egocentric guy like that. Nice is relative. He's like most sociopaths - nice, charismatic, fun, ...until you say the magic word (no) and then there is hell to pay
     
  5. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor

    Ive said no to him over a few things. We have had our disagreements on one or two things. Im still here. Never had any problems for it and we both have a good respect for one and other. Im not one of his ex students either, so no favouratism claims can be used against me.

    He is human. Not perfect, but then neither am I. Im still in CKD despite having the occasional disagreement with him and have never had him undermine me or try to push me out of CKD as others claim to have had happen. Thats my experience with him and I dont understand how others seem to have a completley different opinion of Master P.
     
  6. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    I said no last July when in the U.S - everything is fine - if i need to contact him he's always courteous.
    I've heard things about him & Grandmaster Choi but until i see things like this happen for myself - i take no notice.

    Everyone who knows me on this forum will know i don't particularly like the CKD trumpet blowing but then i don't like it from other people & organisations either (or the pointless slanging matches).

    Generally - You don't like...you go else where. Some do, some don't.
     
  7. alister

    alister Huh?

    Gotta love the guy...

    Really, who pays to go and have professional shots done of themselves doing stuff in their uniform???

    I thnk a litle bit of wee came out when I saw this....


    http://www.suttonckd.co.uk/guestbook.html
     
  8. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor

    The guy is running a professional school so has some professional pics for his promotion. He isn't the first person to do so. Vince Cassar has done so in the past and so has GMC. Cant see anything wrong with getting some decent pics done if your trying to promote your classes. Thats my 2 pence worth anyways....
     
  9. alister

    alister Huh?

    There's a fine line between promoting your art and promoting yourself.

    knowhatimean?

    :cool:
     
  10. eedan

    eedan Valued Member

    Saw that loyal old amiller gave you the run-down on the ranks. The amusing part is that there are now 18 ranks to complete to get to bbelt. Each carries a hefty testing fee - good portion (50-60%) going to kwang jo choi. Prior to the great "gun incident", where a fairly large group of ckd chief instructors confronted choi about some changes (and he supposedly threatened them with a gun) and subsequently took their schools and students out of the ckd system, there were quite a few less ranks. According to a successful school owner (who was part of this group), it was the sudden loss of testing revenue that prompted choi to add more ranks. This meant that fewer students could generate just about as much revenue as they used to earn with more students and fewer belt levels. However, I imagine that there was some sort of "spin" on this change that made it look like it was some great, innovative change to help the hapless student.
     
  11. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor

    Actually from the break down HQ gets a good deal less than 60%. But hey, we cant let facts stand in the way of you having a go now can we? :)

    Supposed "GREAT GUN" incident. You could work for the national inquirer. Ive seen a web site that makes note of this "incident". Im guessing you might have something to do with it. Not seen any proof on that web site though in the almost year its been up and running. Just lots of accusations and no unbiased proof.

    Sudden loss of testing revenue from? The people who left AFTER they made the tag and junior/senior belt announcment?

    Your forgetting they took out the Bo Dan black belt by the way when you mention this change.

    Also, does anyone actually remember the colour belt syllabus prior to this?
    It had so much less in it than the syllabus that replaced it.

    Kicks up to black belt in old syllabus (front and rear):

    Front Kick
    Side Kick (Spinning too)
    Swing Kick
    Reverse Swing Kick (Spinning too)

    Punches

    Inward
    Straight (since removed as it wasnt that much different to inward)
    3 strikes
    Round Punches
    Upward
    Rev Knife Hand

    Now I could have missed a few, its been a while since that change. 10 years in fact.

    Added techniques since:

    Knee Strikes
    Heel Kick
    Downward Kick
    Crescent Kick
    Twisting Kick
    Spinning downward, spinning twisting

    Vertical Round Punch (Diagonal)
    Front Palm
    Round Palm (not sure if this was in the old syllabus so please correct if im wrong)
    Elbows (Again not 100% sure if they were in the old syllabus or not if they were it was around red belt)
    Curled Finger

    Also the syllabus was changed so that the person got more practice at the techniques over the time that they were in the art up to black belt. So was a good idea in the way it was structured.


    Belts in the old syllabus (to Il Dan Black Belt)

    White
    Yellow
    orange
    green
    blue
    purple
    purple red tag
    red
    red brown tag
    brown
    brown 1 black tag
    brown 2 black tags (cost me twice the usual grading price with my instuctor not sure if that was asked for by HQ though)
    bo dan (paid only a little less than my Il Dan test for this grade)
    il dan

    So they added 5 new ranks to the syllabus...... Hardly a HUGE amount considering that they also added more content to the syllabus.

    And yes some of those techniques were in the 2nd dan + syllabus. But we are talking about the colour belt syllabus and how it was GREEDILY changed to get more revenue. Yet there was a LOT more content to it. And not that much of a revenue change either. Also bearing in mind that they got rid of the probationary black belt, which cost about the same as the Il Dan (think it was about $20 difference in cost when I tested for them both).

    So, bearing all that in mind. That the students were taught more. That the syllabus was structured better. And they eliminated the costly Bo dan and the charge for Brown strip tags being double. How much more does CKDHQ make from a person going from white to Il Dan? Not much, if any......

    And yes. More belts and tags in the system will mean that school owners get more revenue and also HQ in the long run. But so long as the students are happy with what their learning, its taught safely and the end product is good then whats the problem with that?

    I would have paid around about the same in testing fees today for 1st dan as I paid for my 1st dan in 1995.

    Not bad really that. My students paying the same in grading fees for their il dans that I had to pay 12 years back....
     
  12. Counter

    Counter Train more. Train harder.

    The main thing being done in the article on the website is trying to frighten people. If you just tell them how unsafe they are on the street they might join your MA.

    By the way, does he really have to take down other semi/full contact MA's?:

     
  13. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor

    I read somewhere that most people are motivated by one of two things. Pleasure or pain (avoiding it).

    For those people who are motivated by pleasure these articles would probably not have as much impact as the writer would hope.

    For those who look to avoid pain as a motivating factor it might just hit the right buttons for them.

    CKDHQ has been taken to task by some members of MAP as they dont concentrate on the self defense aspect of CKD enough in their promotions. This guy is trying to promote the self defence aspect and is being taken to task. :D

    But the writer is just a CKD instructor representing his own thoughts and opinions. We all have the right to agree with or disagree with them opinions. It doesnt however mean that ALL CKD instructors worldwide hold the same belief or that his articles should represent us all as a whole. There are things I agree with in the articles and things I dont agree with.

    As for "taking down" semi/full contact MA. When CKD was first introduced it was different to the other TMA's. It had some pretty different methods of teaching people to defend themselves and also the techniques were different to other TMA's and designed to be better for the practitioners health. Not going into why in detail here as that would take another post.

    So initially to drum up interest CKD would push a few things. 1) it was more powerfull and effective technique wise compared to other TMA's. 2) we dont Spar in the same sense you do. We use specific drills to learn the same things that TMA students get from sparring. So for years that was a selling point. To build the art we also tried to interest people from TMA's to cross over to CKD.

    Some people now dont promote that side as much, but there are a lot of people who have been in CKD for a long time who still use it in their selling points.

    Personally, nowadays I think CKD is big enough and established enough to stand on its own merits without us going around knocking other arts as much as we used to. While we should still try to educate others about CKD and why we believe its beneficial we dont need to knock other arts. Im pretty confident that if I had a student come in who has never done any art before and they try my class and a TMA class, that the student would choose mine. Im also more than happy for my students to go out and experiment in other arts if they want to as I am confident in what I teach.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2007
  14. Counter

    Counter Train more. Train harder.

    It might hit the right buttons, but I think it's not the right way to get new students. Just present your art as it is, don't exaggerate it by playing in on their insecurities.

    Of course, I realize that this is an opinion of a single instructor, and I'm not trying to bash CKD. Just disagreeing with this instructor.

    With all respect, even if you're a new kid on the block, it's not fair to knock other arts is it?

    I think that's really good.. It's good to see some other arts next to your own, and it's good to have an instructor supporting that :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2007
  15. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor

    I have quite a few students who would never have joined if they had to do sparring or competitions. They had no interest in picking up loads of bruises or taking the odd punch or two and so saying your an art that avoids competative sparring or all out sparring is a legit way of attracting people to CKD. That doesn't have to neccassarily be disrespectfull to other arts. We have a different approach to TKD that we feel is a great way to learn self defence without getting hurt.



    There is never any need to KNOCK other arts (apart from Kook Sul Won - with their ninja butler outfits :p), but if you develop something you feel is superior to other arts then your perfectly within your rights to advertise what the improvments are and allow others to judge it on its merits.

    Do you disagree with other markets advertising improvments on their old products or competitors products? Its perfectly reasonable bringing up the differences so long as you do it in the right way. If whiskers made a new cat food and they found that 10 out of 10 owners said their cats preferred it we wouldn't get wound up about that would we? :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2007
  16. Counter

    Counter Train more. Train harder.

    Ok let's leave the first part for what it is, I don't really think we'll reach an agreement on that one ;) I simply think it's the wrong way to attract new people.

    Of course you are allowed to think one is superior over the other.
    Your example is not completely legit I think. In advertisement aggressive marketing is not appreciated either. If 'Brand A' thinks it makes a product better than 'Brand B' and makes an ad saying: "We are Brand A and we are much better than Brand B", 'Brand B' will be offended and 'Brand A' will be regarded as an overaggressive marketeer by it's competitors. I think it has to do with (business-)ethics.
    And last of all, I don't think you can compare a MA style with a commercial corporation. It's an art and the main focus should not be to exterminate as much of the competition as possible and make as much money as you can.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2007
  17. amiller127

    amiller127 Chief Instructor

    Some of my reply was a bit toungue in cheek.

    To be honest, I agree with a lot of what your saying. My only point is that I feel its legitimate for CKD to compare itself to others and its possible to do so without being disrespectfull.

    For example, for CKD to put an advert out saying "All other TMA out there are rubbish compared to CKD which is the best in the world", would not be a good way of doing it.

    However if CKD were to say

    "After analysing comparable techniques from CKD and other TMA's, CKD's punches were found to be 400% more powerful"

    Then I think that so long as it could back that claim up its fine to use it. Note in there im not slating the other art. I dont say, learning TMA will not be usefull for you at all. All im saying is that comparing them CKD comes out on top etc.

    Thats just an example by the way.

    Its also perfectly legitimate for CKD to target people who may be interested in MA but are not up for doing sparring or competative fighting as it is not part of our syllabus. Then we can legitimatly say somethign like " learn a martial art, without the competition fighting or contact sparring"....

    But conversly, if we are putting an article into a traditional MA magazine, the people who will be reading it will ALREADY be in a martial art. Now as far as I can see, there would be 2 main reasons for writing an article in a magazine.

    1) To promote your art to other people of other arts and to educate people in other arts what the differences are. Also to maybe give people in your current art a better understanding of the art.

    2) To use the magazine as a tool to promote yourseld and your school. That way you can show your students that you regularly contribute articles to MA magazines and that gives you some kind of extra legitimacy... (Alister, DONT EVEN START :D )

    Now if im writing an article for a MA machine my main aim is to promote the art to new people and others from different arts. So there im going to compare and contrast methods and explain why I believe x method is more productive and useful that the y method employed elsewhere. So long as its not written along the lines of (CKD is brilliant, X is Carp because it does Y and Z). We can write articles without ridiculing other arts. They all have something to teach non MA people, but some more so than others....

    I think more so these days articles on CKD are tending towards that style rather than saying TKD etc is rubbish.
     
  18. alister

    alister Huh?


    What?!!! :) [innocent]
     
  19. eedan

    eedan Valued Member

    just found your post and your use of the word "ethics" is one unknown by the ckd upper crust. These ARE giant info-mercials and most are inaccurate and/or distorted truth. The "our punch is harder than your punch" research oft quoted by the ckd people is from a very old and inaccurately constructed bit of research. (could give you more info. but not the time and place) The big story about the instructor who "operates 5 schools" - no she doesn't. She holds classes at a number of child care centers! Operating a school requires a business license, managing overhead etc. Otherwise, just call it what it is - holding some classes at a child care center - which doesn't demean you as an instructor one bit. The problem is that ckd seems to have a need to distort truth in order to claim that they have x-hundred "schools". A real school would be a place where an adult or some outsider (not a student at that child care facility) could come in and enroll in ma classes! There isn't anything wrong with ckd for many people. But the claims are outlandish and the sad part is that the brainwashing is so deep. You know, it's fine to make a choice to practice a particular art, but higher ranking students and instructors should be able to tell bullshido from truth and not keep perpetuating a lot of trash - I have said it before and will say it again - your heart, m.s., fibromyalgia, flexibility, strength blah, blah, blah will improve if you stretch sensibly and walk a couple of miles 3-4 times each week. THIS is medical and physiologic REALITY with consistently documented research to back it! Will you learn to punch and kick? No. For that you go to a martial arts or boxing class. Ckd is NOT more POWERFUL than karate or tkd. I think a ckd black belt would have one up on a tai chi student or a yoga master. But, and I mean this in the most serious way, God help them if a ckd black belt went against a tkd black belt in even a controlled match, let alone an all out street fight. Ckd practitioners have a very skewed image of "fast" punches and kicks (even the fastest I have ever seen are SLOW compared to an equal rank tkd student) and what constitutes a hard punch. I think it's common for lower ranks to believe all the urban myth stuff they hear about their particular m.a. Then, some of the much higher people, usually in these "systems" (ckd, ata, ita) that have taken a standard art and "modified" the techniques, have a vested interest in finding something to make their style so "special" that it makes all others obsolete and, in the process make it important to convince students that the other styles are bad/evil/will injure you etc. They hope to isolate and keep students unwaveringly loyal (a.k.a. enrolled).
     
  20. eedan

    eedan Valued Member

    Maybe they SHOULD be that confident at ckdhq, but apparently they are NOT!!!!!!!
     

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