Holy Christ on a stick, I just realized this forum existed. So CKD is recognized as a legitimate style now it seems. So who here trains in it, who knows of Ralph Allison, what's with CKD's competition with TKD (as if you are proving something by claiming practical superiority over TKD), and who can explain this abomination of intellectual garbage? http://www.suttonckd.co.uk/self-preservation.html Do all CKD schools abide by this dogma that no contact = quality training?
since this thread is called CKD questions i have a question. WHat is this style like? what style would you compare it too and what are the differences?
I used to train in CKD. I never really saw any competition with TKD, although that may have been truer in the earlier years I don't know, but I have to say CKD seems to have gotten over the need to "compete" with TKD (since one eveloved from the other). The problem now is that CKD tries to compete with all other martial arts by claiming that it has been "proven to be the world's most effective". A lot of that is bull propogated by one top guy and his network of institutionalised lackeys. There's a lot of good instructors out there who don't subscribe to all that and are better for it. As for Ralph Allison - yes, I know of him. Some would say "at least he's working hard to promote CKD", which is a fair point. But I have to say that a lot of what he publishes betrays his lack of knowledge of the anatomy of fighting, which does CKDs credibility no good. I have seen him train I can say that I wasn't impressed by his technical ability. I'm sure he's a great guy but there are people around that could promote CKD with a bit more credibility in MA than saying that giving the classic "trained in a variety of styles" line and saying you once did judo and your brother was a regional judo champion . No. The school that I attended tended to use CKD as a basis and for grading purposes, but we trained a lot of street defence stuff (SDF - Dave Turton - top UK Self Defence guy and has trained the likes of Geoff Thompson and Jamie O'Keefe - google them if you're interested). A lot of other schools I know also like to "up the ante", especially for their higher graded students. There's no getting away from the fact that CKD was evolved from TKD so that's what it is closest to - a lot of the techniques are very similar (although have different names), but their execution is different. In terms of stance and punch technique, think Western boxing. Kicks are also powerful but somewhat telegraphed IMO. CKD is not competition oriented but, if trained with a bit of pressure (and contact), could be effective for SD as against competitive MAs which go in for points sparring only. CKD gave me some pretty powerful strikes and took me to a reasonable level of fitness and competence in MA - but only as a starter. I've since moved on to do other things, but the CKD strikes, for example, are still part of my core skills set, combined with SD and BJJ/MMA. A lot of people stick with it and enjoy it - we're all after different things in our MAs. For me CKD only went so far before there were more questions than answers, but like I say, that depends what you want.
CKD has gone in the direction of preserving life through fitness and as we have all read in past threads CKD can be good for low and medium impact exercise, which is beneficial for a whole range of people. CKD in the past, and especially in the UK worked on more self defence oriented principles, the whole mindset was different. I remember going to a black belt class, and watching two people really push each other in a defence drill that can also be used with minimum contact. Both ways are useful, and in my opinion you should push yourself now and again. In the USA and before 1997 there were two high ranking instructors called Bob Lowery and Eric Hennings who were much more interested in self defence. Now we do not have such people. All I can say is that I know of many Instructors who are good at CKD and have the right attitude towards self defence. They are the ones who cross train and think about technique and application. Similarly, there are Instructors who really don't know what they are going on about..... I think i've said enough!
Well I just read the stickies, so I'll tone myself down more than I would in other forums because I don't want to start a flame war and get this closed again. Fair enough. If you enjoy it and you're getting in shape etc. then more power to ya, but I'll say to you the same thing I said to the Bujinkan ninjas below. If you're not regularly sparring with medium to hard contact, and only act out techniques (that have not been tested) on each other, then you ARE NOT gaining self defense ability, and anyone who is telling you otherwise is lying or doesn't know any better themselves. If you enjoy the school, enjoy the people, and enjoy the exercise (especially if you aren't physically capable of doing anything a little harder) then that's great for you, but please don't think that you are any more capable at defending yourself now than you were before you walked in the door. ESPECIALLY if these are the types of "self defense techniques" you are learning http://www.suttonckd.co.uk/on-the-streets.htm Some of this stuff is downright scary how useless it is. It's like they tried to make the most impractical techniques ever, and then claim they can't do them on each other because they are too dangerous. This is why I was shocked to see this forum, because I didn't realize it was a legitimate style, and not some cheap money-maker by some con-artist like Allison. But if there's other instructors out there, with a more practical mindset, then I'll reserve some judgement till I see it.
There are a handful of very good instructors out there, but it's usually the ones with the flashy websites, shops and "special membership packages" etc etc that are really bad....and, because there's a pyramid selling type tactic in CKD, these bad instructors advance poor students real quick, then let them open up schools of their own, so the whole system goes on and on. It's luck of the draw really as to whether you live near one of the good ones.... That's part of the reason I left CKD - didn't want to be tarnished by association...sad but true.
lol, and a war it would be! This is a point that is highly debated, especially between CKDists and other MAists. However i'm sure that if you are an intelligent person you would not say: "you cannot learn knife defences without someone trying to stab you for real". So the question that needs to be asked is where best can a person draw a line between learning in a safe environment, and being realistic. To be honest, the answer is not a clear one, as people are comfortable with different levels of risk in the training hall. What I REALLY want you to know builds on what alister said, there are some instructors that are .... ahem .... 'better at earning money than teaching self defence'. However, while there are mugs that are prepared to pay for it, there will always be this concept. Finally, I want to be clear that: I am convinced that Choi Kwang Do strikes and drills, when PROPERLY researched and applied can be effective AS PART of a self defence programme.
And in all fairness (not that it makes it right!), this exists in pretty much all MAs and SD systems and not just CKD. There are good and bad in all things. The problem comes when newbs don't know any better to be able to discern between what is good and what is bad and get suckered into believing they're getting something valid. There I have a problem. If I sold you a jar of marmite, you'd expect it to taste good on your toast (if you like it - you either love it or hate it right? ), but if, when you put it in your mouth you realised it was really just black paint, not only would you be gutted, your health may be in danger. At this stage, trading standards would step in and stop you selling for it not being what it said on the label and also being dangerous right? Unfortunately there is no such check or balance in MAs. I've just read that metaphor back and realised that I think I'm going mad, but I like it so I'm leaving it. Oh, and I love Marmite.
And I'm sure that if you are reasonable person, you'd realize doing knife defenses in slow motion off of big swooping attacks or lunging stabs is impractical and a waste of time. As for my opinion on "good" knife defense...well IMO it doesn't exist, because this is what happens when someone attacks you with a knife: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibGyGG3X4PI"]Stabbing, or "How Knife-Fighting and Defense Pan Out" - YouTube[/ame] But if you want the next best thing, then suiting up in protective gear, using a marking practice knife, and working your techniques full speed with that is the only thing you can do. That is how the Straight Blast Gym STAB program does it, and that's the only course that I'd recommend to someone who wants the most practical defense against bladed weapons. Not sure if you realized you did it, but you just laid out a straw man argument. You make a statement (false statement mind you) that knife defense cannot be done full contact, and then extend that reasoning to all forms of combat without further explanation. In short to answer your statement, it is true that the level of contact is dependent on the practitioner, but the rule of thumb is the higher contact you are willing to test yourself under, the more prepared you will be for the real thing. No contact at all, leaves you completely ignorant of what goes into a fight (as Mr. Allison demonstrated in those instructionals of his I posted) and leaves you woefully unprepared to defend yourself against even the most inept of adversaries. I think the fact that the style and organization was founded on this principle, rather than it being a side effect of greed like what happens to most other styles is the issue. This is a point I really don't care about, because my focus is on the practicality of their program. Won't argue with you here. But when kicking pads and doing compliant techniques with no contact is the bulk of your training rather than a PART, then any possible benefit is reduced to nill.
Firstly, I have not put many of my personal (and perhaps non CKD type views across) so I may as well continue... lol I can see how you feel I did, but I was trying to form an analogy rather than refuting your opinion. Incidently I agree with you on most levels. In my opinion, the best way for a person to learn self defence is to get into street fights and learn the hard way. If that can't be done then get into a full contact MA, full stop. I can tell by your writing you are an intelligent person, no doubt highly researched and good at what you do. I do not wish to pre-judge you as I dont know you at all, but I do not wish to go to work with cuts, bruises and injuries from 'realistic' training, i.e. fighting. CKD does provide a niche for people who want to feel safer without having to resort to extremes, and I have never stated otherwise to students. The drills teach footwork, balance, awareness and reaction - all things that are useful in a self defence situation. CKD's major flaw, (of many I may add) for self defence purposes is the lack of adrenaline - proper 'fight or flight' stuff. Also, people don't get hit hard in the face, so thay generally arent used to it. Not to mention that lack of groundwork. I have some experience in other arts, and there are many that complement CKD. Should I be arsed in the future, I intend to pursue BJJ, and do some knife work as I am crap at it! I could go on and on about this, however I have a bed to go to.... lol Au Revoir!
well Chris, I can only wish you luck in your training. But keep in mind, without live application, all you are gaining is knowledge. And knowledge is useless without ability at putting that knowledge into action.
CKD has it's place in the martial arts market! It serves a purpose giving confidence to many - Sometimes thats all you need NOT to be attacked in the firstplace. & it can prob' depend on the instructor you find when we get right down to it. It matters not what anyone thinks is right or wrong - if you like it, you stay if you don't, you go. There are a great many styles that don't practice realism at all & there are those that practice realism to a certain extent & there are those that practice & push the realism as far as they can. BUT if someone attacked their child most women could beat off a street fighting man...motivation is often the biggest factor of a confrontation. I've seen very angry little women beat the ...smelly stuff out of huge hulking guys. Knowledge is often when someones beating the crap out of your head. Everyone losses at some point no matter what their knowlege or ability. CKD trains a certian way & thats how it will stay - like it or not. Up to the individual to find extra skills & knowledge.
So....what you are saying is that it doesn't matter if the techniques or sound or not, because parents become vicious fighters instinctively to protect their children, and as long as students of CKD are gaining confidence (even if it's ill-gained confidence with a false sense of security) then that's a good thing. Perhaps I should open a dance school and market it as self defense. After all, as long as they buy it, have fun, and gain confidence in themselves through my lies then that's all that matters. Thanks for your thoughts, you've given me much to think about.
There are many top ufc fighters with all the technique & have done testing in the world - but they still lose at some point. Not everyone wants to test technique until they have cuts, lumps or bruising , especially a mother of a 7 year old. The 7 yr old gains confidence & may never have to fight from that alone. It would niave to assume that alone would be everything they needed. But the techniques do work - they have been tested. I'm sorry i let myself get dragged into this same old argument from someone ususlly in there late teens, early twenties who have been told they have to get beat up in class to know if you make it on the outside of the Dojang. One statement i'd like to make before i sign off " We don't breed fighters, we breed winners but if you wanna learn to fight - go to a kickboxing class!
You're right...so long as that place is marketed correctly. A lot (not all - I think I've explained this before) of CKD technique, and instruction, is not effective self defence. It is however a reasonable martial art (ie. a system of following patterns and drills, getting technique correct etc), does help fitness and as pointed out in another thread, does get people who may otherwise vegetate up and exercising so that is a good thing. The biggest problem is the quality control - far too many incompetent instructors marketing not just effective SD, but "proven...world's most effective" :bang:. I cannot deny that if run well, CKD is great for CV fitness - but a quick look at some of the websites' galleries and the huge number of really obviously out of shape instructors and BBs, then once again, we have a problem of disparity between marketing and reality. I wouldn't have nearly so much of a problem if CKD either: a) was more honest about what it really is in the majority of cases (martial arts inspired exercise programme) or b) Took the quality issues in hand and had more scruples about who gets Dan grades, instructor status and can run schools....rather than pursuing a quick quid or buck. At the end of the day, that's up to CKDMAI, but on a personal level, it affects me, because CKD is part of my Martial Arts CV...i'm proud of what I learned, but do not want that tarnished by out of shape armchair warriors and on an ethical level , it's just plain wrong to sell something to someone as something it's not....in other industries that would be just plain illegal.
"proven...world's most effective" I do think this statement can & is taken out of context (or at least in the wrong context) where CKD is concerned by anyone that reads it. If one reads the mission statements & what the art emphasizes as it's core - then read the above statement - it actually means "the most effective" in that context - that it's the best in what the mission statement says is the goal. It's a useful play on wording & gets people in to look at the art. It does attract comments from people who have never seen the art, read one or two statements & make assuptions as to what they are talking about. The fact is that CKD is one of the most thought through arts created in modern times, it was not merely 'half inched' from some other art in raw form. There are many great influences with in CKD techniques (TKD/Muay Thai/Ju Jitsu) of course... I totally understand someone having a problem with anything CKDMAI says. thats their right of free speech. But i find it saddening when someone makes critisisms on something they've never seen in person, only read a bit about. I don't think i have to stick up for CKD, in fact i rarely do. If you want to kickbox-then do, if you want to Ju jitsu it-then do, if you wanna compete-then do etc, etc. If you wanna know about CKD then ask & someone will be only too glad to answer. But don't slag us off when you don't get the answer you like! As for making a quick buck - yes there are those out there i suspect but don't tar us all with same brush!
I have many critisms of many arts but i keep them to myself as the practitioners of those other arts are gaining so much. All arts have something to offer - i tell people who walk into our Dojang, if you don't like what we do go to another martial art because there maybe something you like about what they do. If they don't like what they do maybe come back to us - it's up to them. It would very disresptful & wrong of me to critisize someone elses beliefs & practices! BTW click on the "Be an unstoppable fighter" link below to see advertising at it's best.
Dude, if you're answering me then I can tell you, I've seen CKD first hand for several years and met a lot of the characters that are supposedly at the "top" - I was Dan graded and Head Instructor, the lot, so I feel adequatley qualified to criticise...especially since I've gone off and cross-trained and had my backside haded to me several times over. I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush and have been at pains to say so...it's pretty clear I think who I am referring to - just those that deserve it. If you're secure in what you teach/learn, good for you. My comments shouldn't upset you.
