Discussion in 'Injuries and Prevention' started by Van Zandt, Jan 4, 2015.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Amongst the links I've provided is an article discussing the placebo effect of "popping" the spine, and the resultant nocebo effect if you become used to having it done regularly and you miss out on a session.

    That is the only difference between any good a chiropractor will do, and a properly trained musculoskeletal expert.
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i think what we probably can all agree with is that joint manipulation of the non-grappling kind can be beneficial for someone's health, but that as anything relating to someone's health, particularly where deleterious effects are possible, said practice should be regulated and strictly limited to those certified as having adequate training in the subject. the problem arises when said certification for health practices is extended outside of the established health fields, whether that be within alternative medicine or simply by itself (as tends to happen with many sorts of massage, for example), where things that have sod all to do with properly treating health issues may get mingled with it, such as in the case where chiropractors start claiming all the crazy woo bull poo-poo such as the ability to cure things completely alien to the treatments they provide.

    that said, one thing that is a valid criticism of regular medicine and one reason people flock to alternative therapies or to quacks (and actually something we were made to study in uni in several of the not strictly scientific/biomedical classes) is that the latter tend to actually treat people as people, whereas many actual health professionals do not, and deal with the ailment in spite of the patient and their individual context, rather than addressing it correctly. that is not a defense of alternatives, though, but rather a condemnation of health professionals who act like dumb turds and forget they're dealing with complex human beings, since they drive people away from scientific medicine and onto unproven, disproven or contentious methods that can do more harm than good.
  3. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    also overhead presses and a strong abdomen >>> having someone else pop your spine. i can pop most of mine purely by muscular action, along its natural range of motion (thus with effectively no risk), and can decompress my neck and make it pop by literally pushing my head upwards with my hands :p (which tends to elicit some rather entertaining stares from surrounding people in particularly loud instances :D)
  4. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I have been a chiropractic patient for several decades now. I know it works for me. I believe it has kept me from crippling disabling neck pain.

    I can't remember doing research when I first started. I was young. I pretty much research any new treatment now,but it was so long ago I can't remember if I did then.

    I have my life experience to guide me. Raeoh has his experiences. I only hope that anyone stumbling across this thread sees that some people feel chiropractic benefits them and then go do their own research before making their own decisions.
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I guess that's a no then?

    I wondered why you didn't seem able to absorb anything that was being posted.

    There's nothing to be done in the face of wilfull ignorance, so I'll bow out now.
  6. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I think it really comes down to any kind of national training/certification and the individual. The chiropractor I went to for about 5 years was very focused on muscular imbalances, joint integrity, strength, flexibility, movement patterns, overuse patterns, ergonomics, and spinal realignment.

    This is not validation for chiropractic as a whole but I think there are individuals who have merit. Searching them out can be difficult.
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Which is exactly the point. It's not good advice to tell people to take a crap shoot with their health.

    Personally, I think chiropracty should be banned and chiropractors can retrain as bona fide physiotherapists.
  8. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    You really consider someone having success in receiving a treatment ignorance?

    I am not here to convince anyone of anything but being open to possible treatments. I am not here to try and convince anyone to try it if they don't want to.

    Just or others out there to hear that some have had success and recommend at least checking it out.

    You want to blame me for not remembering if I did research 25 years ago- fine. I might have- I just don't remember- it was decades ago!

    I was in desperate pain and chiropractic helped without hopping me up on drugs.
  9. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    David, disbelief or dislike of a branch of health care is one thing, but there's no need for rudeness.
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That wasn't why I said it was wilfull ignorance. I'll adress aaradia directly about it.
  11. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Are you ignoring the placebo effect of sugar pills in patients in general or does it only apply to chiropractic patients?
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It wasn't that you didn't research chiropractic 25 years ago, it was that you were engaging in a thread without reading any of the sources I took time and effort collating to further the debate.

    If you are arguing for the validity of a practice, but don't want to read any of the research into it, I don't know what else to say other than you are practicing wilfull ignorance - beause you are deliberately avoiding educating yourself about it.

    Even Gerson Therapy has patients who survive cancer, that doesn't mean that it has any basis in fact.

    I'll leave the floor now for the pro-chiropractic people to present evidence for vertebral subluxation and link to studies proving their point.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It is more the nocebo effect I was pointing out.
  14. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    I will admit I am extremely skeptical about most claims of chiropractors. They have helped my family immensely. Placebo effect or not. My experience is it works.

    NO. They cannot cure cancer, prevent the flu, or make you smarter ( moden medicine makes theses claims @lso) but it does help, and keep some of us from surgery that modern medicine said you must have.
  15. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    I will also add I spent 6 months in physical therapy. It made my pain worse! regardless if the therapist was wrong or not, she based her treatments on current modern medicine theory.
  16. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Just so I'm clear, so wouldn't the argument be that the physio who treated you failed to create a treatment plan that was effective, rather than the entire field?
  17. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    That's cool. I can't argue with superior knowledge.

    Aren't you a survivalist? Forgive me if I am wrong.
  18. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Good point. I actually had a second opinion. That cost me a ton of cash. Boh agreed at first I needed surgery.
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I just wish humans could evolve better backs because they are so hard to treat and diagnose and so prone to waxing and waning of symptoms that it's fertile ground for quackery.
    And while chiropractic may have evolved over time towards physiotherapy it's undoubtedly quackery at its foundation.
    All illness in humans is not caused by misalignment of the spine blocking vital energy. But that's what chiropractic teaches at a fundamental level.
    Chiropractic is akin to believing in balancing the humours.
  20. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Physical therapy is awesome. Don't get me wrong. I still advocate both sides. It is just that sometimes 1 dosent work. including chiropractic.

    I opted out of chiropractic for my shoulder. I only hope I don't need surgery
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015

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