Chinese herbs, do they really work?

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by slide, Jul 27, 2009.

  1. Anorhyme

    Anorhyme Banned Banned

    Or you could simply beleive historical evidence that something works.

    Depends on who you are I guess. If you are a straight laced person who does what he is told to do and believes that authority always tells the truth, then you go the route you suggest. If you are a free thinking person who understands that most people are intentional or unintentional liars, you always think about what is said and make your own conclusions.

    Thousands of people cured over hundreds of years by some plant is enough proof for me. I don't need a man in a suit to give me permission to believe that thousands of people cured over hundreds of years means something is safe.

    You will have to explain your sympathy. Looks like a dominance ploy to me. You infer you have superior knowledge but you don't put it out there for examination. That is the defintion of a dominance ploy.

    What? Are you saying doctors and corporate representatives do not wear suits or special clothing to designate who they are? You do live on planet earth don't you? All the doctors I meet wear either white or green. All the corporate representatives I have seen were wearing suits.

    And all of that is performed by people wearing white outfits, green outfits, and suits. Just like I said.

    You don't suppose a company would produce a study showing Tiger Lilly was ineffective and Viagra was effective because they own Viagra stock do you?

    Weird how both respondents make the same comment. I think you need to open your mind. Go on the TV and get some pictures from those doctor shows of people cut up for surgery. Then get some pictures from Iraq or Palestine of people who were tortured.

    They both look the same.

    I do not understand how you can be so certain. There are many types of medicine all over the world. Why is it western medicine that is known for cutting human bodies open? Why?

    Oh lordy. People are impossible. The testing you hold up as the holy grail is worthless because Western Medicine is about money, not health. How many medicines have passed all those trials you mention, then gone on to harm or kill people? I can't even begin to count them all.

    Thalidomide was given to pregnant mothers. Thalidomide produced deformed babies. What do your scientific trials have to say to all those deformed people?

    Vioxx was marketed as a pain reliever. Vioxx was removed from the market after they discovered it was killing people by heart attack. What about your scientific trials in that situation?

    The scientific trials you champion are a joke. They are something the drug companies produce to bamboozle accepting people like yourself. Drug companies are about money. Money is about getting to market as fast as possible. Getting to market as fast as possible means producing studies that only say good things about the product.

    I shouldn't get so worked up. It takes years for people to break their training to obey authority and begin to think on their own. I know you guys can't help yourselves. It is just so frustrating to see authority waste years of your guys lives while you work to throw off their control before you become truly independent minded and independent thinking human beings who learn what the world is really about.
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2010
  2. Anorhyme

    Anorhyme Banned Banned

    I never understand why people who think they know something feel everyone else should be denied the opportunity to learn. If you know this material there is no reason for you to be here or to post. Conversations like this are for people who do not know the material.

    People like yourself seem to forget that new human beings are born everyday. They have to be taught all the things you already know. Why do you want to deprive people who are just growing up, or maybe adults who have just now become interested in martial arts, the opportunity to discuss things they do not know?

    When you reach the stage you claim to be at, you are supposed to keep quiet and let the newbies learn while the instructor talks.

    Are those statements supposed to be wisdom or insight? It is common sense isn't it? Let me say what you did in just one sentence.

    "Everything in the world is good for some things and not so good for other things. The trick is in getting it right."

    I don't understand how saying obvious things makes you superior?

    Do you go back to grade school and tell the kids English and Math are useless? If this thread is useless to you, take your superiority and leave.

    Someone somewhere else will appreciate your sence of self superiority. I am sure of it.
  3. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Nice to see you PlumDragon but I disagree. It seems to me that packaging things up into Modern vs. Alternative or Western vs. Chinese creates an unnecessary dichotomy. What we should care about is whether medicine from any tradition works or doesn't work. There are simply ways to do this and since we have started testing medicine there has been a quantum leap in how effective medical treatments are. Your position also seems to acknowledge that some treatments are better than others so how can we find that out and why should we keep the treatments that don't work?

    You don't need a time machine when we have the historical record. Nor do you need a time machine to see the mountains of evidence that provide us with a very detailed understanding of how the body works.

    Oh and your definition of torture is ridiculous as is you're attempt to suggest that because surgery involves cutting it is therefore torture. Under such a ridiculous definition almost every medical system involves torture including TCM. Western medicine might also be noted for things like antibiotics, germ theory, anaesthetics, blood transfusions and so on.

    No I am applying your logic. You suggested that if a treatment exists for thousands of years and has a lot of testimonies for it's effectiveness their must be something to it. So why do surgical procedures practiced around the world not count? Blood letting was part of TCM for millenia so on what grounds do you dismiss it as ineffective given your arguments? Oh and by the way remember you are defending eating tiger penis they do not grow on plants...

    I meant criminal morally and ethically. An endangered apex predator being slaughtered so that people can consume it's penis in order to try and improve their sex life. Great balance with nature there.

    If you think that Chinese society and Chinese herbal medicine is an entirely non-profit endeavour then you must not have spent much time in China or done much research. Alternative medicine is just as much about money as modern medicine with the major distinguishing feature being that modern medicine is required to prove that it is effective and alternative medicine is not. If alternative medicine was proven to be extremely effective then I suspect those big bad pharmaceutical companies would be all too happy to get in on the action.

    As per you're conspiracy theories well the nice thing about modern medicine is that studies are published and people can look at the evidence for themselves. It's not a full proof system but it is a darn sight better than any regulation of alternative medicine. If you look at the history of modern medicine do you see treatments being abandoned in the face of new evidence? Yes. What about alternative medicine? Can you think of any treatment that has been abandoned because of a lack of evidence... hmmm...

    I'm pointing out the flaws in your logic. You implied that not knowing how a medicine works doesn't mean that it doesn't work. That is true. The point is though that you have yet to present any evidence that eating tiger penis improves your sexual performance aside from noting that it has been widely believed in for a long time.

    It should be beyond argument to anyone who has a basic education that something being in the shape of a part of a human does not mean it is a medicine for that part of the body. The fact that modern medicine updates is also not something to hold against it. If modern medicine refused to update in the face of new evidence that would make it.... well just like alternative medicine. I also sincerely doubt that you're 'clippings' would be particularly objective.

    No because a basic level of education in biology is enough to recognise how fallacious such reasoning is. You are supposing that animals organs and plants organs by virtue of their shape and function well help a person in the organ they resemble if he consumes them. Where is the evidence for this? Does that mean eating a lions heart will give you courage and an ostrich's legs will make you fast? Where is the evidence and what evolutionary processes lead to this wonderful human-centred world where animals are walking medicine cabinets?

    No it's the statement of someone who doesn't buy into something just because someone from a foreign country says so. Coming up with an explanation is very easy but has absolutely no bearing on whether the explanation is true. If there is good evidence that tiger penis helps human sexual performance I am all ears...
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2010
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Hah...the reason we need threads like this is that it reads like a who's who of the logical fallacies put out by supporters of SCAMs (Supplements, Complementary and Alternative Medicines).
    For example...
    I appeal to the strength of a scientific approach to medicine using placebo controlled trials means I can't think for myself and just adopt the view sold to me by big corporate pharma through shadowy men in suits (or whatever way the person wants to demonise and charicature the opposition).
    However when the other side appeals to the logical fallacies of popularity (loads of people think it works!) and longevity (people have been using it for years!) it makes them a freethinker. :)
    Bizarre but it's quite funny really.
    I mean I could turn round and say that the proponents of TCM are perfectly happy to buy into something so long as it's presented from a long and venerable cultrual tradition by men dressed in funny outfits and sporting long moustaches and inscrutable faces.
    But such things are crude appeals to emotion rather than logic and rationalism. I don't care who is presenting an idea so long as their burden of evidence is rigorous and open to scrutiny.
    Medicine practiced without proper controls for placebo effects and human bias is destined to be a largely unknown quanitity no matter how many people buy into it or how long it is practiced.
    TCM I'm sure has remedies that have medicinal effect. Just the law of statistics means they must have happened upon something that does something. But, as I stress, without a procedure that removes placebo effects and human bias no one truly knows what they are. Couple that with the large lack of regulation and the well know proclivity for the China to produce the results that make China look good rather than the truth and that makes TCM something I wouldn't touch.
  5. PlumDragon

    PlumDragon "I am your evil stimulus"

    Likewise, its been a long time! =)

    To be perfectly clear, I dont mean to create a dichotomy at all and I tried to phrase each of my points in a way that they didnt relate to the other. Ultimately, I tend to feel youre just restating what I said in sentences rather than bulleted form though...

    My ackowledgement is simply this: Chinese medicine works really great for certain types of problems, and Western Medicine works great for certain types of problems. This is NOT to say that this list is exactly opposite, it doesnt necessarily map one way or another. Just both systems have strengths and weaknesses. There are issues with some treatments in TCM, both from a functional as well as ethical perspective and the Chinese medical community has been pretty pro-active about discarding these treatments over time. Theres a lot of research left to do but theres also been a great deal done (placebo this, double-blind that, etc etc etc) and its changed things in some ways, for the better. And at the end of the day, that is the goal, is to help people get better. And hopefully someday day it will all be united in some way...And as we all continue to evolve, we will use the best tools we can to allow peopel to live and healthy as possible...
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2010
  6. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Says the person who just tried to equate surgery with torture!

    How, exactly, do you know they were cured? The more we go back into history, the less reliable and the more sparse the accounts are.

    Assuming they were cured, how to you know it's not a placebo?
    How do you know it's not regression to the mean?
    How do you know it's not confirmation bias?
    How do you know it's not the result of some other treatment they received?

    You have this bizarre view of evidence-based medicine as being nothing more than "men in suits" telling people what to believe. This is nothing more than a red herring, if not an outright strawman. You're either being extremely disingenuous or you're ignorant of how evidence-based works. The reason we think something works is because it has been demonstrated in objective double blind studies. Such research trumps any anecdotal report or personal experience.

    Do you even know what a double blind study is? Watch this short clip:

    You seem to be implying that the personal views or agenda of the "men in suits" is behind their promotion of medical claims, yet as you can see from the video, their personal views are irrelevant, because neither the patients nor the researchers or doctors even know which individuals are receiving which medicine/treatment. That only becomes known AFTER the trial is complete, yet by then, we already know which was effective. They will promote medicine X as effective, not through some personal liking or agenda for that medicine, but instead because that medicine has been objectively and blindly demonstrated to work in multiple trials.

    Given my comments above (and the video you've just watched), would you mind explaining what relevance this has on the effectiveness of viagra? If viagra has been demonstrated to work in a double blind study, and Tiger Lilly has demonstrated not work in a double blind study, what relevance does someone business dealing have on that result?

    This is a textbook example of projection!
  7. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Perhaps you should actually heed the words in your own sig!
  8. Anorhyme

    Anorhyme Banned Banned

    For a person so full of doubt, why do you trust history so much? I can provide you with many instances of historical inaccuracy. The only way to be certain of anything is by time machine.

    I don't think you have considered torture and torturers very much, nor have you seen the work of torturers. The work of torturers indicates curiosity. Not only do they want to cause pain, when they see curious things during their infliction of pain, they act on that curiosity.

    It is my belief that is where western surgery began. Torturers noticing curious things about their victim and recording those curious things. Eventually that information was used for surgical healing purposes instead of the infliction of torture.

    I should just stop being polite. ;0 Have you seen the news stories about face transplants? You know why they just happen to be doing face transplants now in the mid to late 2000's?

    Because they cut the faces of Iraqis off during the invasion and occupation of Iraq as torture. I saw the pictures. They had all these faces laying around and the western doctors doing the torture got to wondering if they could sew them back on. Voila! Face transplant surgery.


    It is not. What is your experieince with western doctors? My experience and the experience of people I speak to is that western doctors are uncaring individuals whose main purpose is to get the patient out of the office as fast as possible to get the next paying patient in, and to schedule the most expensive tests and procedures possible.

    I went to the doctor the other day. There were 3 of us in the office. The doctor was late because he was in surgery. The doctor had another surgery scheduled for a time that made it clear he could not see us. That doctor wasted the time of 3 people and made it clear that they were of no importance to him because he could make the big money performing surgery. The 3 of us were only going to pay our copayment of $25 or so for a total of $75. That surgery must have been a few thousand at least.

    As far as I know it is literally impossible to spend even a fraction of a percent of the amount of money on traditional alternative medicine as is spent on western medicine.

    You statement about "alternative medicine being just as much about money as western medicine" is obviously and completely false.

    You refuse to admit that the trials you champion are not flawless and have been publicly proven to be vulnerable to bribery and other dishonest manipulation for financial gain.

    Is that the claim for the effectiveness of tiger penis? That it's similarity to the shape of a human penis is what makes it effective? Or is that something you just came up with?

    I believe you are so certain you are right that you fail to think about what you say. In the paragraph above I removed the word "shape". You mention biology in the paragraph so I guess that means you know something about biology. Let me ask you a question.

    What would biology say was in a tiger penis?
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
  9. Anorhyme

    Anorhyme Banned Banned

    I find talking to people <to be a delight and I thank my lucky stars that I get to interact with people during the> limited time I have here on earth.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2010
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    What would biology say was in a tiger penis?

    Pretty much what's in most penises. But that's not how it works. It's YOUR lot that are proposing it does something. What would YOU say is it in it?
    And it better be something pretty damn good with reams of good evidence to justify the near extinction of a top predator for sake of a few chinese business men to get their rocks off.

    You refuse to admit that the trials you champion are not flawless and have been publicly proven to be vulnerable to bribery and other dishonest manipulation for financial gain.

    No one's refused that. We're not as stupid as you think. We know things are not perfect and are not pretending otherwise (again you are constructing straw men).
    However one flawed double blind, placebos controlled and randomised trial is worth 100 years of anecdote and adherence to tradition.

    It's no coincidence that Chinese life expectancy went up with exposure to proper medicine just like other places in the world. If they had such good health care "our" medicine should barely have made a blip.
  11. PlumDragon

    PlumDragon "I am your evil stimulus"


    Im going to respond to your post in the most civil way I can, and take your advice and bow out. I didnt come here to argue or listen to people who think they have nailed my entire psyche in a couple sentences, and I want no part of it. So you can have your thread, its no skin off my back. I hope you are able to get something out of it.

    It has nothing to do with denying anybody anything. I feel that threads like this do more harm than good, theres no real meat to glean from all of this, its just a bunch of back and forth banter at this point--perhaps I should have been more clear about that so that I didnt get responses like yours from people with an argumental chip on their shoulder.

    As has been pointed out already, things tend to get split into a dichotomy and wars ensue and everyone leaves the table feeling they have defended their side succinctly and convinced someone of something, and to go this route is missing the point, and drives a further wedge between everyone involved. And part of this frustration occurs due to the fact that all the topics discussed here are very complex fields of work that deserve a great deal of time investment to appreciate and cant be well explained of defended in a few posts interspersed with argumentation.

    Thats quite the poetic statement, but once again, this has nothing to do with depriving anyone of everything, it has to do with the fact that I think this thread is more destructive than anything else; it does not nurture growth, it nurtures argument.

    Coincidentally, I spill my damn guts to my students and clients and much to my wifes dismay, I take appointments and phone calls in the evenings when a learning opportunity (whether Im learning or teaching) presents itself, and I do so enthusiastically. My teacher tells me he teaches me as his son; having a 2 year old boy I am watching grow up, I take that to heart and I try to teach my students that way. You dont have a damn clue about the people you claim to have special insight about, and your demeanor in these posts is exactly what Im talking about...

    I never claimed to be anywhere. I know what I know, and I enjoy what I do and its that simple.

    Did I claim that I was superior? Certainly not in the least, that was an assumption that you tried to attatch to me. Once again, I think you have hastily misread why I would have made the claim I did about the thread being useless. And once again, maybe I should have been more clear. And likewise, maybe in the future you can attempt to not flail about in such obvious anger before you have a clear picture of why somebody would say something. It was really unnecessary.

    BTW, not everything in the world is good for some things. Not everything is created equal. But finding a common ground with the groups of medicine can make discussion a bit easier because people can let their guard down a bit if they realize that their perspective is not being attacked.

    And I do plan to exit the thread; we dont want your blood pressure to get the best of you...Looking at your short post history here, the last thing you need is more reason for someone to ban you... :woo:
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
  12. sakumeikan

    sakumeikan Valued Member

    The people who sell Chinese Medicine and other people involved in Alternative Medicine I am sure certainly feel much better when the public are purchasing their products.So if no one else gets benefit at least they do.
  13. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Even if this is true (is isn't) you just effectively conceded that there is indeed a distinction between torture and surgery: torture intended to inflict pain/suffering whereas the surgery intended to heal.

    In the UK, patients do not pay.

    Again, in the UK, this does not happen, because patients do not pay, so patients only receive what is necessary. Giving them unnecessary expensive tests and procedures will not get the doctor any more money. In fact, in the UK doctors will get more money if they make patients healthier (such as helping them quit smoking, or reducing blood pressure or weight, etc) meaning less visits to the doctor.

    No one suggested they are flawless, so this is another straw man.

    As for bribery and dishonest manipulation for financial gain? Can you provide a link of the case you have in mind?

    The immediate case I can think of (which may also be the on you hand in mind) is the case of Dr. Andrew Wakefield (of the MMR-autism scandal), where it seems he altered medical data so it fitted his apparently desired results and was being paid by a law firm who was working with parents making a case against vaccine companies. What is paramount to this case however was that it was the scientific method and scientists that figured out what was happening, so far from this case demonstrating the dishonour of science, this case actually confirms the superiority of the scientific method, because it clearly demonstrated that bad intentions and fraud can and will be rooted out. Wakefield is currently being investigated by the General Medical Council for medical misconduct where he was recently found to have been unethical, dishonest and irresponsible.

    You are misconstruing his comments, and it looks like you're shifting the goal posts too. You were suggesting that western medicine is a money making business, with drug companies only focused to get their products out to make money. CKava's point was that companies providing alternative medicine are equally businesses that are concerned with money (as all business is), not that western medicine is cheaper than, or the same cost as alternative medicine.

    One of the reasons alternative medicine is cheaper is that companies providing them do not need to recoup years of research, development and testing. Evidence-based medicine spend billions and billions every year developing new improved medication and technology, which they have to do in order to prove efficacy and pass strict regulations.

    If western medicine was, as you claim, only concerned with money, and if alternative medicine was so effective, why would the drug companies not keep their money and instead turn to the far cheaper and apparently far better alternative treatments? It doesn't make any sense that they would pursue the less effective western medicine at a greater cost when they have the option of more the apparently effect and cheaper alternative medicine!

    People like you often present a straw man perception of scientific medicine as being cold, uncaring, and financially focused, contrasted with the world of alternative medicine where everyone works out of the kindness of their heart. When this happens it's quite apparent that you have an inherent bias against scientific medicine!

    The only person in this discussion that is coming off with arrogant certainty is you! We are willing to allow for the possibility that so-called alternative medical claims are valid, given the evidence, indeed I think that most will acknowledge that, for instance, certain herbal remedies can be of some benefit, or that the is some evidence showing Chiropractic can be useful for lower back pain. Unfortunately, for the majority of alternative medicines, the evidence of their efficacy if just not there. You on the other hand seem to be a certain as you can get that science and 'western medicine' is nothing more than an evil fraud, a scam based on no other purpose than financial gain. You are creating a straw man of science and evidence-based medicine that's drenched in poor logic and thinking that this rebuffs the thousands of cases of successes of science and evidence-based medicine. As Aeigs rightly noted in the other thread, you accept what science has to say in most cases and you reap the rewards of science every single day, whether it's in transport, in medicine, in technology, and so on. None of this, none of modern life would be possible had it not been for science and the scientific method, so to denounce it as you are is at best ignorant and worst hypocritical!

    Would you actually prefer a world without modern science?
  14. Anorhyme

    Anorhyme Banned Banned

    Huh? That is the answer of an intelligent person truly interested in figuring out what is going on here? I am guessing you don't know the answer or cannot come up with one that sounds reasonable so you sidestepped the question.

    What is not how what works? You did not answer the first question and this statement has no details about what it is you are talking about now.

    I think you are waving your hands in the air in the hopes that people will become so befuddled they will not realize that you are saying nothing.

    Ya. Word/Psychology games.

    "Rule #1 of word pyschology games - Never admit you don't know something because it makes you look lesser. If someone asks you about something you don't know, puff yourself up as if you do know, then tell them to provide the answer. Gets you out of the predicament of ignorance every time.

    <Thanks for your input, I will consider your words and I appreciate your reply.>

    <I may be older than you but you certainly raise points I will consider. Thanks for your input!>

    What if it is not health care that increased their life expectancy? What if it was improved economic conditions as in having enough to eat?

    Also, is "living" really a measure of what is best for human beings? I bet you could keep a human being alive with western medicine for 200 years. They might be a vegetable with machines feeding them and sucking the wastes out of their body, but they would be alive.

    Is that really a good thing? Should western medicine be prasied for that?
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2010
  15. Anorhyme

    Anorhyme Banned Banned

    You can talk to me anyway you want. I am not one of these thin skinned cry babies that will run to the administrators to complain about you. Say anything you want to me. But you have to promise that when I come right back at you with what you gave to me, you won't start crying and run to the administrators for protection.

    That was dramatic. I don't need anything out of this thread. I know TCM works and I can participate in a conversation about it and how it works.

    You are just a swell guy. Ya I have an argumental chip on my shoulder. When I see something I disagree with I give voice to my disagreement. The man he do not like that so he try to push me or anyone else back by labeling what they do with some negative label.

    If I wanted to I could say you are an argumentative person for making this post. If you were who you claim to be you would have left the thread and said nothing.

    Oh My! People disagree! Everyone do the YMCA!

    People should be trees. Trees want to live in a world where nothing ever happens. There is no up and down. Just one smooth level that never changes.

    Trees do not understand that disagreement transfers energy between the participants. There is energy transfer going on in this conversation right here. It is necessary and healthy energy transfer that makes the people involved more like each other.

    If trees had their way and every disagreement was quashed because it made people cry, people would stay separated. They could never work through their differences to see who the other person really is. Society would be the worse for it and human evolution would be retarded by that kind of action.

    Blah blah blah. Complex subjects require lots of time and explanation. What is your point? I am not going anywhere. The internet has limitless storage. This thread can go on for 300 pages until we figure out what is what.

    I know, I know. If people have different opinions someone might cry. You have told all of us how you think.

    I hope this is not a kindergarten.

    Sure I do. If you had talked to me for more than a few posts in one thread you would know that. But you want to rush to judge me and condemn me in a few posts. You are tolerant and patient, thanks.

    Do trees have the ability to express an emotion without feeling it? If you think a student needs sadness or anger or happiness from you, can you give them what they need?

    I can be hard and angry to make a point, then shake your hand and give you a hug and a dollar bill the next minute. That confuses a lot of people. They are certain the hardness and anger they hear means I hate them. Then when I shake their hand, give them a hug and a dollar bill and say "have a good day", they go into shock and stand their open mouthed for a few minutes until they recover.

    And there it is. The true reason you posted.

    PlumDragon <insult removed> only posted this huge message so he could say "the last thing you need is more reason for someone to ban you... "

    I guess we will see if the admins run this site for adult conversation or to make the trees happy.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2010
  16. Anorhyme

    Anorhyme Banned Banned

    You should read more world news. I read the world news. Especially British news. So I know that the British literally allow people to die if it costs too much.

    I would not be flaunting the superiority of a system of medicine that puts a price on your life.

    This is where reading world news will help you. The cases I have in mind are from America.

    See? You read British news and British news is all about Andrew Wakefield so that is the only case you know of. I personally feel Wakefield is being persecuted for political reasons. I don't trust anything anyone else says about him even though they may be right.

    Are you quoting press releases? Do you really talk like that? There is no human being in that paragraph. It is a computer generated press release.

    You just don't get it. You cannot make a billion dollars from alternative medicine. You can only make a billion dollars from western medicines. Drug companies are about money. Not health.

    It does if you get rid of your naive faith that they are interested in curing people and not in making money.

    You are close to getting into my big book of people I like. I have a deep affection for friendship and hugging.

    I am speaking from experience. My lifelong experience with western medical people is that they are cold, they are heartless, they are liars, they go out of their way to put fear in you, their main goal is making and saving money, they are incompetent, and they think a knife will cure any health problem

    My lifelong experience with alternative medicine people is that they are loving, caring, competent, understanding, tolerant, and listening people who will do anything, literally anything they can, to try and help the patient.

    I went to an alternative doctor once. I overstayed my alloted time by 2 1/2 hours!!!!! The doctor let me stay in the office until I was ready to leave. Can you imagine a western doctor letting you stay in the office for 5 minutes more than your allotted time?

    I went to the western doctor and they took blood. I was really sick. After they took blood I started hyperventilating and literally could not stand up and walk. I sat in the room for maybe 3 minutes hyperventilating and swaying on my seat like I was going to pass out. Some Bitch Nurse says to me "you don't have to stay there. You can leave now!!!!!!!!" I was in their room and they had another patient. If I was hyperventilating and going to pass out I could do it out front in the reception area or on the sidewalk. They needed that room for the next patient and I needed to get the hell out!

    Ignorant people always say this to people who know things to cover up their insecurity.

    You really ought to start working with a parrot for whatever authority will hire you.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2010
  17. Rhizome

    Rhizome Super Valued Member

    Their are a multitude of chinese herbs and other herbs which have scientific research backing them for their effectiveness.

    the problem is using them properly, getting quality products i prefer raw powders over expensive extracts which may not contain the full spectrum of compounds.
  18. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Absolutely. People who become alternative therapists tend to be warm, earthy, new-age, hippy types. I'm sure this makes them much nicer people to be around than medical doctors, who are often seem to have more than the average population's share of personality issues. I suspect this is a self-selection bias between the types of people who want to become herbalists and those who want to become medics. However, When we're discussion the effectiveness of medicine, you have to go with the cure and not the curer.

    Clinical trials are just a formalized way of saying "prove it" before you'll admit something works. I think this enquiring attitude is very healthy, wouldn't you say?

    Could I also say, with my moderator hat on, please cut out the personal insults.
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2010
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    That is the answer of an intelligent person truly interested in figuring out what is going on here?

    It's the answer of a person that lives in a world where an animals **** doesn't have medicinal value just by virtue of the outward apparent power of the owner. It's an answer that know's that penises are made up of nerves, erectile tissue, blood vessels, bone and a covering of skin and not much else.
    If anything it's the balls that have the real power in the genital triumvirate.
    Tiger penis potions are sympathetic magic pure and simple. Tigers are big powerful animals. Men have sex wth their penises. So do Tigers = ingest their penis and you'll have Tiger-like sex.
    It's exactly the same thinking that's behind eating your opponents heart after you kill him to gain his power, courage or whatever. It comes from a time when mankind did not understand the world.

    What is not how what works?

    The burden of proof my man. You are representing the people that propose tiger penis does something. I'm representing the deafult null hypothesis that there is nothing without evidence. Therefore YOU do not get to ask the questions (What do you think is in Tiger penis? for example). The burden of proof is upon you to present evidence. We can ask questions of you because it is you that is making the proposition.
    If I suggested that unicorn penis was a much better sex-enhancer than Tiger penis the burden of proof would shift to me (in a weird non-debate about non-effects).

    The rest of your post is a lesson in logical fallacies. Ad hominems for the most part. It therefore doesn't really have anything worth responding to.
    If we can keep this to salient points we'll get much further.

    So here are some scientific question a rationally minded individual would like answered before he kills a beautiful animal in order to boff the missus slightly better than his already herculean efforts.

    What is in tiger penis that make a man perform better sexually?
    By what mechanism does it work?
    Why tiger penis specifically and not the closely related lion penis?
    Does a Liger or Tygon penis have half the effect of a true tiger penis?
    Does a larger starting penis mean a greater effect (a dose response)?
    Does Tiger vagina increase sexual response in women or does tiger penis "do it" for everyone regardless of sex?

    I think you'll agree these are important matters. :)
  20. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Well, Anorhyme, since you know so much, perhaps you can enlightens all of us ignoramuses what the efficacy of alternative medicines is.

    For someone who portrays themselves as so mature and enlightened, you seem awfully ignorant of how best to engage in an intelligent discussion.

    Right, so perhaps instead of merely telling that you know how it works, you can actually demonstrate it! Can you can finally enlighten us to the following: (1) how TCM works, (2) what its mechanism is, and (3) what methods confirm that it works?

    If you actually knew how the British health care system works then you would not buy into this conservative distortion.

    The fact is this: resources are limited. There is only so much money, so many people, do many hours, so you have to prioritise. The American free market system does this by money: if you cannot afford health care you just don't get it. The British universal system does this by clinical need: everyone will get health care however those in greater need of medical care are seen first.

    The NHS do not allow people to die; what they do is evaluate cost effectiveness: is £60,000 or £200,000 or whatever per person for an extra three or six months of life cost effective, when, say, that amount of money could provide for more equipment, more nurses, and/or more doctors. This is not to put a price on life, rather it is ask how we should best make use of our limited resources.

    Like the US system doesn't! Even if your analysis of the NHS were true is still produces better results according to various health factors.

    How arrogant of you to presume what I do and do not read, and what I do and do not know! I certainly do read about both domestic and international news, that being said, I'm not psychic so perhaps you can inform me what particular cases you have in mind.

    It's the most prominent and most recent case, hence it was the case I cited. How this somehow provides any insight into the sort of news I read is anyones guess! Either way, Wakefield's case is hardly a British only issue.

    And I'm still waiting for you to point me to other cases.

    He is being charged for medical malpractice, deception and fraud. How is this a political issue?

    Why not. If they are right, why distrust them?

    You know responses such as this suggest you do not have any legitimate rebuttal to my argument.

    It seems you do not get it. Let me make this crystal clear: pharmaceutical companies will SAVE billions of dollars by virtue of abandoning 'western' medicine, and instead focusing on developing alternative medicines. If they were really all about money they could avoid billions of dollars of expenditure.

    Also, I sincerely doubt that the alternative and complementary medicine industry does not exceed a billion dollars, indeed a quick bit of research shows that I'm right:

    According to the Nutrition Business Journal, the alternative and complementary medicine industry is a $39 billion industry!

    This article also attests to the multi-billion dollar nature of the industry:
    The market potential for alternative medicines is high as is evident from the revenues generated in different parts of the world. In Western Europe the annual revenues for the period 2003-04 was to the tune of US$ 5 billion. The Chinese market registered annual sales US$ 14 billion in 2005. In Brazil revenue from use of herbal medicines touched US$ 160 million in 2007.

    Says the person who maintains the delusion that the alternative medicine industry does what it does through nothing more than the kindness of its heart. Look, like I said before, both industries at a business are level about money, but this does not mean that the people involved, in particular the medical practitioners and researchers, do not care about helping people.

    Marvelous! When you are incapable of a serious, legitimate rebuttal, just resort to ad hominems. This is not the sort of behaviour one would expect from the enlightened and mature debater that you think you are.

    Do you know that it is a logical fallacy to extrapolate your personal experience as if it were representative of the whole. And to preempt one possible response from you: yes, it is quite valid to use personal experience as an example, but it is certainly not valid to assume that this personal experience is proof of an argument, in this case, that 'western' medicine is inherently evil/bad/not to be trusted/etc.

    If someone were to have the life long personal experience that 'western' medicine practitioners did nothing but to help others with kindness, were honest, and did their best ensure their patients were calm, what then? How would you resolve the apparent contradiction between their personal experiences and you own personal experiences?

    Clearly you can see that even if your personal experience is bad, it would not mean that 'western' medicine in its entirety is to be abandoned. Nor would it mean that 'western' medicine is not effective.

    Would you be able to provide some example from your own experience as to why you think that practitioners of 'western' medicine are:
    - cold
    - heartless
    - liars
    - go out of their way to put fear in you
    - their main goal is making and saving money
    - they are incompetent
    - and they think a knife will cure any health problem

    These are all rather bold claims and it would be useful to this discussion is we knew what lead you to believe this.

    Do you agree that none of this is evidence for whether the treatments they provide actually work? How they behave and their intentions are distinct from efficacy. Even if alternative medicine and 'western' medicine were both how you described, that you not tell us whether the treatments themselves work, which is really what matters.

    If it were as bad as you were describing, I doubt they would have asked you to leave. I suspect you're exaggerating a little. In any case, even if it was as you described, that would not mean this is the norm, and it would not mean evidence-based medicine doesn't work.


    You attempt to defend yourself from a charge of arrogance with this...

    P.S. I'm still waiting for those other cases.

    You really ought to start answering questions. For someone who thinks he is so smart and enlightened you seem awfully incapable of actually illustrating this immense intellect of yours! All you seem to do is pontificate about your own greatness whilst decrying the presumed ineptitude of all those around you! :rolleyes:
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2010

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