chi kung 5 animal frolics

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by cloudz, Mar 2, 2007.

  1. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Hi Mad Frog,
    I just wanted to try and address your questions.

    Belief in a supreme God, or a supreme Dao, makes an individual realise they have no individual spiritual power and they are essentially at God's mercy. This is a central message of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and originally in Daoism too. (Daoism originally emerged as an alternative to the shamanism and folk religion of its time, but that stuff got mixed back in, thereby turning the philosophy on its head.)

    Belief in qi as a source of metaphysical personal power, on the other hand, is a form of self worship. Qigong is both a kind of self delusion and a mind control cult. Why else are people able to keep posting laughable clips of students throwing themselves around in front of their oh-so-powerful "Masters" as they unleash their magical jin (or should that be djinn) "powers" ? Think about it.

    You asked where in the Bible it says qigong is evil - The Garden of Eden story. A central message of the anti-pagan faiths is that we should not seek personal power through forbidden knowledge because it will corrupt us. It will make us turn away from God (the greater good) and make us think that we are special and powerful. We're not. It's good stuff.
    ------------------------------------
    I know I am always likely to remain a minority on an IMA forum, arguing that there is no such thing as internal arts. However, I post in order to simply make it known that there is an alternative to the mainstream "internal" methodology, and that the arts can be practiced without it. Just like Hong Junsheng and Wang Xiangzhai, we can utterly reject the concept of qi and its cultivation if we wish to and crucially our martial arts will in no way suffer if we do. For me, martial ability is the sole purpose of martial arts and every other purpose you add on top only dilutes your training.

    Regarding turning the other cheek. This is a very valuable idea for all of us. The message is not to lash out in vengeance. References to how this might conflict with martial training are not really relevant. It is up to the individual martial artist (hopefully guided by some kind of benevolent moral code) to ascertain what level of force may or may not be appropriate to the situation.

    Jesus was not against physical force in all circumstances. In St John's gospel, Chapter 2 we see the following event:

    His message here was that people should not make money out of meaningless rituals, not least, they should not do so in God's name.

    This matter is probably not very relevant to this thread, but it is a short response to the "turning the other cheek comment." We'd really need to discuss such matters on a theology / comparative religion forum.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2007
  2. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    There's no such thing as karate. There's no such things as boxing. There's no such thing as aikido..

    They are styles of training, so what makes them different. What they put emphasis on. OMG they have different names attached what are we gonna do - woe is me! :cry:

    Just because you want to disregard a style of training because you don't care for the name or what that means to you. Certainly does not mean it 'doesn't exist'. 'silk reeling' doesn't exist to me of course, because I don't call it that and I don't like the name.

    Why not let me remind you seeing as God has been dragged into this as well as qi..

    Your God does not exist to me. My experience exists to me. As does my definition of qi. Which comes from the philosophical daoist perspective. 'Everything is qi' as in energy.. meaningless though that may be to countless people . I also agree with other definitions of qi, like breath etc. meaningless though they may be rendered by scientists and health experts throughout the world.

    I'll lump a mataphysical belief in God and creationism in with that pseudoscientific garbage shall I ?
    I have a new dvd coming out i want to make a living off.

    It's called: Forget all your ideas about God: I am God listen to me!
    Only 999p
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2007
  3. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    You deserve this :)

    [​IMG]
     
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    ps. I wouldn't train in the style of the second clip if you paid me.

    Everyone send me money, so i can prove it. I'll put it in mine and inthespirits big money beer & training stuff fund, we need to get us some flutes and cool outfits - no silk jimjams for us!

    Because we want to be proper taoists like the interdimensional ones in the clip, and looking and sounding that cool cost proper money you know.
     
  5. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    so zen you gotta love it

    you've totally lost it you nutter :D

    (but who is that comment actually addressed to.... :confused: :cool: )
     
  6. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Is' respectfully choosing to mutter amongst myselves.. :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2007
  7. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    If we had enough threads discussing chi, we can weave them all together and make a whole string!

    But, to be honest I know the answer to the mystery of chi, but I aint telling ya'll nothing... ;) if all chi is qi, and all qi is ki, is all ki, chi?

    As the man with his armz in the sky says "let there be ....." and there was ... me... :confused:

    :D

    note to all my selves: stay of the crack and stop embezzling funds from the big money beer & training stuff fund…

    But I also like the definition in here:

    me like it long time..
     
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Dude I think you've gone yi quan bonkers, seriously, that's a whole kettle of fish departed from taiji bonkers. And I bet you didn'y know that. 50 squid says you didn'y.

    It's you, you're the one keeping all them dealers in bling and burburry.. I had a strong hunch about that. I bet you fifty kettles of fish i did.
     
  9. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I see your 50 fish and raise you 50 mollusks!

    About them funds.. ahhh... well.. I’ve hid them in shell companies. But, if all shells are shapes, and all shapes are forms, are all forms shells?

    The Polynesians once believed that their canoes stayed still and the islands came to greet them. Sometimes when we train, I stand still and the floor comes to greet me ... hmmm… movement in stillness? :D
     
  10. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Exercises to improve mind-body health and integration. Sounds real evil. I bet if someone were to stick a paper charm on my forehead I'd go straight back to the hellfire which spawned me.

    But seriously, you need to qualify this stuff. The way SOME people practice and think about qigong would be against the bible, but the way I and many others practice would not. It's just a type of exercise. It's an unusual type of exercise--one that can affect your mind and mood more than most, but still, it's just a type of exercise. If I started a cult based around the feeling of transcendence achieved by a "runner's high" would that mean that jogging is evil?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2007
  11. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Aren't you back yet inthespirit, I have a very strong urge to challenge you to eat more fish and chips than me followed by a fight in the street with at least 50 bags of ketchup stuffed down our shirts that would make 36th chamber of Shaolin look rubbish. It was rubbish anyway.
     
  12. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    :D LOL… the ketchup thing is a wicket idea, it would be like Kill Bill X 10… maybe we could do in the Joiners on a Friday night.. we definitely got to film that though..

    I’m back next week, still here working on my “wu wei” jing.. its going great, I think I’ve finally found my calling... :love:

    I’ll give you a call on either wed, thur or fri from da place for dat ting. :Alien:
     
  13. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Nice article :)

    Isn't amazing how fear and ignorance create all this hysteria about 'qi', qigong and IMA practices? Yet having an imaginary friend who's been dead 2000 years is perfectly rational... ;)

    Ho hum
    Think I'll just get back to my training now :cool:
     
  14. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Hi Onyomi - I basically agreed with your first post here.

    The thing is if qigong was just another name for dan lian or just meant breathing (integration) exercise, there wouldn't be this problem - it wouldn't matter so much what people called it, but many insist that they are cultivating and manipulating the animating force of the Universe, and then it gets spiritual. They will not accept that it is possible to do Taiji, Bagua etc, without qi - although it is evidently possible to do Yiquan without it. Why are they so different - I mean really? And was Hong Junsheng wrong? Was what he did Taijiquan or not? Do you think it can be Taiji without qi?

    The making of the cult would be evil, but then I do dan lian and reeling silk exercises - I just refuse to give them their cult name of "qigong."
     
  15. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Oh my god...I don't now where to start, so did consider just walking away.

    "anti-pagan" is a phrase I personally find insulting, as it inevitably comes from people who have no concept of what they are talking about. There are many forms of paganism (which, I would add, has been practiced on this planet for many more thousands of years than the last two millenia)

    What I practice does not involve any personal power in the way you referred to.

    And what the hell is forbidden knowledge...apart from being an oxymoron. :eek:

    Your answer from the bible in response to my question on Qi and the bible was unintellegable, imo. It seems to me that you haven't the faintest idea what Qi and Qiging is....either that or you had a very warped teacher.

    Whatever my spiritual system is, it does not involve 'hiding knowledge' or other such gobbledegook but allows me to develop myself to be a better person, without pointless restictions. Most of all I am allowed to have an open mind as my faith system is not afraid to let me think for myself and ask questions of it.

    So, with apologies for not being strictly on topic, I go back behind my parapet. :woo:

    I still have NO IDEA what music has got to do with Qigong.

    And I know that the bible does not mention it by name.

    This planet is 'going to hell in a handbasket' imo. :bang:
     
  16. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Hi Mad Frog - would you genuinely like me to reply to your questions, or would you prefer it if I didn't?
     
  17. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Hi jkzorya,

    I would genuinely like to hear your responses, thats why I participate in a forum (another thing that predates christianity, btw.)

    You can always pm me if you prefer.
     
  18. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Madfrog - I'd prefer any debate on this to be in open forum because personally I don't think any of this is off-topic at all as every time anyone talks about traditional IMA and/or Qigong jkzorya is attacking it.
    I think people here have a right to know the underlying 'reason' (and I use that word in the loosest possible terms) why she is doing this. Otherwise it's all so dishonest.

    Yes, I've switched you off ignore jkz, I've had me rest for now (look no drama!) and I only picked up on this stuff in a reiki thread on here - not on the shikon forum, I haven't read any of your stuff there. So please do share.
     
  19. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    OK - I'll have to be as brief as I can, for now.

    Mad Frog's questions -
    Don't worry - I know a bit about paganism. I used to be a practicing witch but converted to philosophical Daoism 22 years ago.

    Judaism is overtly anti-pagan though - the old testament is full of struggles to free itself from its pagan past (which had involved things such as human sacrifice.) And Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Sikhism definitely prohibit witchcraft. Any form of magic or idolatry would come under the heading of forbidden knowledge.

    Regarding qi and qigong - I have studied the matter at some length with teachers and books. I just gave it up, that's all.

    I was being flippant. I just meant that if you do some slow movement and put a haunting soundtrack on it, you could call it qigong and a lot of people would believe it.

    TJB - great, I'm glad there's no drama. I've already posted a link to the Shi Kon debate "New Articles by Joanna Zorya" on this thread you could check it out if you like. From there you can probably find other threads I'm on, if you like.

    My real reason as you put it genuinely started out as nothing other than a desire to liberate Taijiquan from fluff and help restore it to being a full blooded martial art. Things have moved on quite rapidly over the last couple of years though and quite a lot more people are now practicing the art martially in the UK.

    I was already growing increasingly sceptical about all the occult baggage which was being piled on top of Taiji practice though. By occult I mean hidden - people witholding information to make themselves indispensable, rather than just teaching everything openly and honestly. I also mean shrouded in mystery and using deceptive tricks. You've been involved in various threads with me in the last couple of months - you know I've posted links to all kinds of scary things that go under the name of "religious Daoism" and it is coming from Wu Dang mountain.

    Here's some blurb about an upcoming event in China:
    I think that while empty force is obviously fake, things like "iron shirt" are also just circus tricks. People make a big deal out of showing what is at the end of the day, a trick. It may involve a bit of training (like fire-eating or juggling) but it does not really mean what people claim it means.

    I have grown increasingly sceptical and wary of qigong and its practitioners based on the hysteria and hostility that my articles have provoked. I know you think I'm out to make a fast buck, but honestly, I'm not. Anyone who knows me will tell you that there is nothing commercial in my message. I frequently give stuff away to people who can't afford to buy it, or just if I think they might be interested.

    I've always been on the side of the student. Mark Chen in his book Old Frame Chen Family Taijiquan points out that it is quite reasonable to be shown martial applications within your first few lessons. That is still a major motivation. I do genuinely think now that if you strip away all the nonsense, there'll be nowhere left to hide for the non-martial (and therefore fake) teacher.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2007
  20. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    jk, to be a bit serious for a mo.

    I don't think you need to focus so much of your criticism to taiji or IMA.

    Iron shirt is a good example. Just last night there was a program on Nat. Geo. About the monk that defected from shaolin and opened a school in US (NY).

    I think you would have found it interesting. This is more of a kung fu wide issue (and martial arts wide - theres plenty of dubious things floating around), where you tend to overly focus your criticism in one area. I happily accept your negative experience of things in this area, as well as the positive experience you've found in the avenues of your choice.

    The cult issue can crop up in martial arts, as well as many other areas in life.
    It is a difficult issue for sure..

    Qigong is not automatically 'a cult'. You insult peoples intelligence and capacity for individual and independant thought, As well as attacking their freedom of choosing their path in the practice they have every right to choose. It is not automatically 'evil' or 'a cult' or 'self worship', because your experience tells you a different story. You may well reject subjectivity, but i'm afraid it is a fact of life.. Of course so is objectivity.. I think you need to squint more :D

    happy training
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2007

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