Chi/Ki - the good, the bad, the ugly...

I can see where you are coming from and I know much of it may not be in agreement with what you study. I could say that I know it's not faith healing but that would be considered evidence in itself right?

But here is a thing I learned in a science class I had several years back and is essential what "muscle testing" is. The process is to hold out one arm and have someone press down testing the strength, which will be the baseline. Then placing sugar in the palm of the other hand, press down again and you will find that the muscle goes weaker. It's best if the participant doesn't know what is going on otherwise that will influence the results. Sugar (raw sugar, I know all food essentially converts to sugar) is known to have a negative influence on the body, so by placing it in your palm, it weakens the autonomic nervous system which is indicated by the tested muscle. So this is something that can be very easily tried to see for yourself. If you like you can also place the sugar on top of plastic so that it's not in contact with the skin and see if the muscle goes weak then based on the energy.

“Light doesn't really penetrate solid matter particularly well. Would it perhaps make more sense to assume that signals are carried by, oh, nerve impulses which are chemical in nature, can be easily detected, and shown to cause a reaction in nerves rather than relying on some special type of photon which can interact with cells while still being able to penetrate them, and can also miraculously slow down so that the reactions are not near-instantaneous (as they would be with light) but show a delay between stimulus and response roughly equal to the time for a chemical nerve impulse to travel the same path?”

Well, the neuron signals are carried through the nervous system. But there is cell to cell communication via biophotons as they send out and receive packets of light/energy. My mistake about crediting Popp as discovering it, he was the one that proved it as before it was theoretical. But here is a bit more explaining biophotons, which may shed some light (no pun):
Popp advanced a revolutionary theory of startling simplicity and power. According to his calculations, whatever controls our biological processes must operate at the speed of light. Anything LESS would be far too SLOW to account for the pace of cell-to-cell communication necessary to sustain life. Popp showed how an organism, depending upon biochemical or molecular means of control, must inevitably fail to regulate metabolism and growth. He proposed that biophotons activate and direct MOST, if NOT ALL, physiological processes”

I was just curious in your personal experience have you experienced the “chi sensation”? Or practiced Qigong or Tai Chi?

Many people that report the feeling as a magnetic sensation between the hands.

A method I've taught to a 6 y/o up to a 55 y/o as a way of practicing qigong which they were able to experience it without much explanation in the first go at it.

The practice involves standing straight while holding your arms out like you would around a giant ball. When you breath in the arms expand out as if the ball you are holding fills with air, when exhaling, it contracts. So you coordinate your breathing with your arm movements. Then once you have that going, you change your focus to your hands. All you simply do is pay attention to any sensation in your hands. It's much like looking over a field to observe any activity. Maybe a rabbit hops into view then disappears, but you just simply notice, you are not looking for it. The same it is with any sensation in the hands its just to simply observe, that is all. Sometimes you may feel a warm sensation, or a little tingly, or anything else, you just observe. The more calm your mind is and not trying to force anything, the more you are able to tune into the sensation. A practice of 15 minutes is usually best.

This is the simplest method I've found and has worked for many, so if one is skeptical, this is an easy way to practice to experience for yourself. The biggest thing is simply paying attention and it will come by itself and toss out any thoughts or judgement about the activity.

Here is an article that gives a basic run through about biophotons as it also relates to eastern healing.

http://www.transpersonal.de/mbischof/englisch/webbookeng.htm

 

Absolute bollocks!

I am sorry if that tone sounds harsh, but that is the sort of pseudoscientfic drivel that has been debunked many times over the years and in many forms.

Randi himself has dealt with several cases involving a dentist (sugar) and a Magnet therapy advocate (who claimed they could de-toxify cigarettes). Full details are in his book "Flim Flam"

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Flim-Flam-Psychics-Unicorns-Other-Delusions/dp/0879751983/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306259159&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.com/Flim-Flam-Psychics-Unicorns-Other-Delusions/dp/0879751983/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306259159&sr=8-1[/ame]

If that is what you consider evidence then your methodology is flawed in the extreme. The problem is when you start out with a viewpoint that "x" is real then your results will be interpreted within that light. True scientific method postulates a hypothesis and confirms or refutes said hypothesis.

"Jedi Knight" type advocates seek excuses and reasons for failure rather than accepting that the hypothesized phenomena itself is not existent. Hence the circle of myth and delusion continues

 

I'll check it out. But I have a hunch that "chi" can be explained, or rather basically how the energy system of the body works as it relates to the practice of qigong and visualization techniques, since "chi" maybe hard to translate into medical speak. Once it can be explained well enough for others to understand and accept it, then we shall know. But so far, I've a got a bit of work to do.

 

Good luck

But be prepared that you may prove it does NOT exist - as long as you are open to that you will do fine

On a side note, whenever these "wondrous feats" are brought up, how many of those doing the act are devotees of chi? I would venture none - which makes you question the validity of "chi raising" excercises

 

Pretty much, yep. If you can put forward actual measurable evidence, repeatable and scientifically significant then I will be quite happy to accept it as evidence. Otherwise it falls firmly under hearsay.

So, wait, one way you've got one arm held out and you're trying to hold it upright, the other way you're holding both arms out, thereby putting yourself in a less resistant position naturally? Not only that but you're placing an object in one of the hands which will naturally cause a split of concentration. You're also pushing down a second time, so the muscles are already tired from the first effort.

Finally you're pushing down with your own hands? Meaningless. A force meter would work, however to do it properly you would need the person blindfolded, a sugar cube and some supposedly inert substance which felt identical, with the same weight. You would need various other test subjects as well. You could then place a randomly selected cube into the subject's hand, and test the force required to draw their arm downwards with the meter. Give them a set period to rest, and repeat with a different cube. Repeat many more times so you can eliminate the natural effect of tiredness. Use multiple subjects, each time randomly selecting a cube and testing so that they can have no idea which substance they are holding.

Once you've done this you've made at least a start on the path of scientific rigour. In fact you should have a second person who is unaware of what the two substances are, and simply marks down whether the person held A or B and the force required to draw their hand downwards. There's a lot more to designing a proper experiment, and you'd need to do results analysis as well.

Now before you say that this is over the top for such a test, I should point out that this is how medicines are tested scientifically - actually the effort and repeated tests and so on are much more than the simplified version I have described. So, if a scientific medicine fails the test - it is not considered a valid therapy.

As will the knowledge of the tester, that has to be eliminated as well as many, many other factors.

Uh...sugar does not have a negative influence on the body. In fact it is somewhat essential.

See experimental design above.

pquote]Well, the neuron signals are carried through the nervous system. But there is cell to cell communication via biophotons as they send out and receive packets of light/energy. My mistake about crediting Popp as discovering it, he was the one that proved it as before it was theoretical. But here is a bit more explaining biophotons, which may shed some light (no pun):
Popp advanced a revolutionary theory of startling simplicity and power. [/quote]

A theory is not proof. Where is the proof?

Nonsense. Some nerve impulses can travel at around 100 m/s. That's fast. That's very fast. Admittedly that's action potential rather than the actual chemical, but again it's a well-understood mechanism which can be tested and examined, and which requires no magical photons involved.

Also, can you show me these calculations of his? I'd be interested to see them, although it'd probably take me a while to look through them properly.

Tai chi, yep. I've also had various 'chi' students claim that they were using chi on me. Similarly I've had pagans claiming they were using magic, Deists claiming that they were praying, and so forth.

You mean the whole 'hold your hands close together and feel them being drawn to one another' thing? No more evidence of chi than the 'stand in a doorway with your hands facing outwards and pushing against the door for several minutes, then step forward and relax and your hands will float upwards' trick.

It's possible to experience all sorts of things. For example, I can meditate and experience calmness, a sense of light, warmth and wellbeing, convince myself that I'm in freefall, and so forth. None of this requires any chi to be involved.

So you're focusing on the hands, and a sensation results? Here's one to try - find a darkened room, and I do mean pitch dark. Good for this are things like deep mineshafts as it's very hard to find a room with an absence of all light. Then sit and breathe slowly, relax, keep your eyes open in the pitch darkness and let your gaze wander. You will start to see lights and maybe many other things. Again, no need to attribute it to any mystical energy - the mind is very, very good at creating non-existent sensations.

Visual, auditory or somatic hallucinations do not a theory of medicine make - if they did then there are plenty of drugs which would be used long before any biofield theory.

Something else worth noting is that in pitch darkness, or close enough, the human eye is sensitive enough to pick up a single photon of light. That's one photon. It will be seen as a tiny pin***** of light for barely an instant. Were biophotons to exist, and actually emitted by every cell, then one human would provide enough light to illuminate a small room with a dull glow if there were no other light source.

There is also no such thing as a 'weak' photon - the energy carried by a photon is set for a certain frequency and wavelength.

And finally, individual photons cannot be 'coherent', they are individual wave/particles. Laser light is a very specialised phenomenon and we would be extremely aware if it were happening in side our own bodies - the high energies required would cook us.

Explanation isn't what I'm after. I've had lots of people try to explain, but as yet no one has ever been willing to provide measurable evidence in a repeatable experiment which fulfills the requirements of scientific rigour.

 

Then a battery can also have chi

Look, Chi isn't about nerve and cell communication.

It isn't electromagnetic energies. (then a magnet can have Chi also)

This sounds like a movie. I'll call it "The Matrix"

 

I didn't explain the “sugar test” properly, which you would only be holding out one arm and another person would press down it. The posture will remain the same between testing with and without the sugar. I understand that for it to be accepted that it needs to go through a rigorous testing process. Muscle testing is being used though I haven't researched into it to explain exactly how they do it,

About sugar being essential to the body, I understand that, as food is broken down into sugar (glucose), but white sugar, candy, soda, etc are not beneficial to the body and have a negative effect.


Biophotons refers to how living DNA uses and emits light, this light is not visible to the human eye - but it is nevertheless measurable. Popp has found that healthy cells emit light at very different intensities to unhealthy cells. “And the term "photons" in the word "biophotons" has been chosen to express the fact that the phenomenon is characterized by measuring single photons, indicating that this phenomenon has to be considered as a subject of Quantum optics rather than of Classical physics.”

Here is one report I was able to find by Fritz-Albert Popp and coherence of biophotons:
http://www.stealthskater.com/Documents/Consciousness_31.pdf

For a listing of his published reports, go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz-Albert_Popp

which you may be able to access the publications through your University.


The reason why I'm approaching it (chi) with biophotons is because they have discovered it follow meridian like pathways and are emitted spontaneously by all living systems.

 

I wouldn't worry. From what I can tell they haven't even researched carefully into whether it works, so you're in good company.

No, they have a nice, positive effect in moderation. Sugar, whatever kind, is not poisonous or harmful to the body in reasonable amounts.

It is claimed that the light is emitted in the optical spectrum, i.e. the visible spectrum. As such if they existed, they would be visible to the human eye. There is no way around this.

Tacking the word quantum on doesn't allow your theory to bypass testing in order to be accepted or valid.

Nowhere does that report actually mention the experiment in the slightest, making it functionally useless. I could quite easily write a similar paper on any made-up phenomena I care to invent - it does not make it valid or reliable.

I've not been in university for some time.

They have not discovered it at all as far as I can see - they have theorised that it exists and then come up with loads of explanations, without ever actually testing their theory. Similarly I can theorise that there is a mini-solar system at the core of the Earth, and I could come up with plenty of different explanations on how this affects astrology and so forth, however without testing it to check whether my hypothesis is valid it's pretty useless, no?

 

I just keep going back to that video where the 60 something year old Chi master gets his balls handed to him by some blackbelt or another. A part of the video shows this old guy throwing his young students around the room w/o touching them. Poor guy. In my relatively short time in the MA's, 12 years, I've yet to see a legitimate display of chi.

 

Agree. All demos I have seen can be explained via physics. I used to be a amateur magician and had belonged to a magicians guild. All of the Chi (including martial art breaking demos) have a limit within the realm of physics.

The BBC had a series called "Shaolin Physics" which there was a reporter and a physicist who observed and explained the demos that the "so called" Shaolin Monks were doing.

 

Oh great it's Black41 AGAIN!
right, dude, first of - no mention of bio photons in Trad chinese medicine so stop plugging that argument.
ALSO You've had this discussion and did not answer a single one of my questions: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1074458460&highlight=black41#post1074458460
And now to ask again on this thread as it is relevant:

So what is the procedure of eastern science and then AFTER apply it to chi.
^^^^ PLEASE ANSWER THE ABOVE QUESTIONS^^^^

 

I'm a trained scientist and I think in this day and age there is nothing on video that can't be faked somehow. I believe that the mind can influence the human body; i.e. raising or lowering your own body temperature. But knocking someone down or unconscious w/o touching them using the power of the mind is pure rubbish

 

Hey man, totally sorry. I've kinda been in my own world the last several days and I know I rubbed some people the wrong, I totally don't mean to. But I really do appreciate it for calling me out on it directly to get my attention otherwise it's likely I will still be wrapped up in myself, which really makes a small package. Quite honestly it's the first time I've joined a forum so I'm kinda getting the hang of it and realizing it's really a community with a lot of conversations taking place and connecting with others.

When I started out on the "chi" debate I was head strong about "showing them", but I've been quite humbled along the way, which is a very very good thing. I've noticed there are some people with very extensive backgrounds in both training and studying, so I'll try to ask more questions than preach the answer. I'm finding that this forum is really a great place for furthering education, which is different than learning it from a book, because there is no argument taking place in a book. So with conflicting views, higher learning is reached and that's what I want.

But so getting back to your question of whether I view it has a harmony of the body and mind, I would say that's what ultimately what takes place. And the more connected and harmonized that is, the greater the feeling, power and coordination will be. But there are still a few unanswered questions for me, that's the reason for my insistent blathering.

I haven't checked out Bob Klein's post yet, but I will. I have read up on the other link that was posted and found it interesting.

I know what you mean about simply approaching it from an eastern view, but I don't think eastern approach is considered science. What I ultimately want to find out is why the mind can have such a strong affect on the body and it's performance; everything from taking a sugar pill to intention and visualization. Wow, that just kinda brought clarity to me! But why I'm approaching it with qi is because from my experience of feeling the "no-inch" punch and how the qigong practice is simply visualization techniques and intention, but leads to physical effects. I've had a few other experiences that has led me to feel that chi or energy is the root of it. I guess as of right now, it's not accepted by conventional science, but I've read various studies they have been doing that are showing some incredible things so I know there is something more going on than what I've come across so far.

 

I've never actually seen the Eastern approach defined in clear terms.

There are various placebo studies which might interest you - http://www.skepdic.com/placebo.html

Visualisation techniques naturally lead to physical effects - that's why they're useful. Someone picturing the perfect movement will approximate it more closely than someone distracted. They'll also learn it more quickly, learn when it feels 'right' and so forth. It's been part of sports training, and others, for a very, very long time now.

It's not about being accepted by the scientific method or not. Conventional science is a poor term to describe it - there is a scientific method which can be used to demonstrate and test, if it does not satisfy the scientific method then the system being used is not science, conventional or otherwise, any more than religion, magic or myth is.

 

I'm probably gonna be sorry for piping-up here, but I can't pretend that the nature of KI has never intrigued me from Day One in the MA. What enforces this curiousity are the various changes I experience ancillary to a given Acupuncture treatment for some condition entirely unrelated.

Personally, I never got the impression that KI was substanitive except by some pretty poorly informed individuals with the equivalent of MA "swamp land" to market. With the HUman Being ever in seach of power and control I can easily imagine folks being seduced with the idea of developing some quasi-electrical force conducted through their body by an invisible network or connective tissue.

The sense that I get from my doctor is that what people call KI is nothing more that the nature of efficiency and effectiveness with which the Human Body does what it does. This level of efficiency and effectiveness can be impaired or facilitated in a number of ways. Diet and exercise are two ways of doing it and some foods and some exercises tend to encourage levels of efficiency in this or that area of the body. The same goes with pressing or poking at various locations on the body. As far as I know noone really knows how or why this happens this way, just like noone knows why I can take an aspirin and that chemical goes everywhere in my body, but relieves the pain I am experiencing specifically in my right hip.

Anyhow, I just thought I might toss in my two cents, FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Nor can they reliably show it being more effective than placebo, which can be a similar treatment but incorrectly applied. If any of the theories were accurate, this would have either unpredictable or undesirable effects.

It binds to a particular chemical which transmits damage signals to the brain, preventing that chemical from binding to receptors and thereby lessening the number of pain signals actually processed. Nothing unknown about it. This also covers how it helps lessen inflammation, as the same chemical causes swelling in damaged areas and so reducing the amount received reduces swelling.

 

Well, thats why I thought that I would pipe-up. For myself I have experienced those other effects and have been pleasantly surprised.

For example, I might go in for a treatment, or series of treatments that address a painful joint. During that series of treatments I also notice a reduction in my cravings for this or that. I didn't go into the treatment complaining of these cravings, but they smoothed-out just the same.

As far as the placebo effect, my understanding that its universal across a wide range of Human experiences which leaves me thinking that it neither proves or disproves anything. However, if one were to harness the effect by providing a focus for it then produce a measurable result then we have a "curative result", yes? Not so different from what you shared regarding the effectiveness of aspirin, right?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

LilBunnyRabbit you are seriously adding a lot of value to this forum. Thanks for your input, I'll check out the link. I guess I refer to it as "conventional science" as something that's been accepted by the whole science community, but I've read other studies that shed some light on what's taking place in the human system and don't consider it "faith based" but I guess it would more properly be deemed as "experimental science" or "theoretical work". The studies have done have taken place under the rigorous testing methods to screen out other possible influences, but I guess they haven't been accepted yet possibly based on the hypothesis they are trying to prove. So from here, I will refer to it as theoretical work.

Hey Bruce I like how you started your post, "I'm probably going to be sorry for piping up here..." hahaha it's been getting a little crazy huh?

"KI is nothing more that the nature of efficiency and effectiveness with which the Human Body does what it does. "

I think that is a fair statement. I was talking to my cousin today about chi and that's basically how he summed it up. Because after a good session of qigong, the coordination of movement seems that much better and feels more intuitive. It's like on good day when you really feel good, you can perform better than a day you feel lousy. An through the practice of qigong, it makes you more in tuned with this feeling and results in increased efficiency and effectiveness.

 

If you check the placebo link I posted above then it goes through quite a few of the placebo studies - both the good ones and the bad ones - and summarises them quite nicely.

The effectiveness of aspirin is a measurable, testable chemical phenomenon. The placebo effect (appears) to be a mixture of different phenomenon including basic psychology, and genuine opiate effects produced by the body in response to a belief that it will recover. Fascinating stuff, but not necessarily something we could harness effectively (although some are trying) and certainly not something that should be charged for.

 

Black41 wrote

The one inch punch or a strike that is delivered on contact can produce some rather unpleasant results if it is delivered by an expert.My own experience has been similar to your own in that I have been knocked across a room by a force that seemed to manifest without any physical movement.I was also knocked unconscious by a Chinese master during push hands training.He released force through my arms and due to my shoulders being tight it shook my brain.Same effect as getting punched in the head.If I had remained relaxed the effect would have been far less dramatic.In this case the power was on contact for an extremely short duration and it created impact rather than impulse.If it had been on for a longer duration my mass would have been displaced and the brain most likely wouldn't have been shaken.When someone is producing force without obvious movement its most likely they are linking muscles groups and stretching the muscles and tendons with their mind.Its no different to stretching a bow and releasing the arrow.Its certainly a highly refined skill but it is operating purely at the physical level.Its interesting that the ones who have a scientific approach tend to have better results than those who use a qi based approach.Perhaps this is due to fully understanding the theory and knowing exactly how they should train.