Chi Gung

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Andrew2011, Jun 17, 2011.

  1. old palden

    old palden Valued Member

    Owing to the quality of your attention and/or comprehension, I am compelled to point out that nowhere in the exercise I described was there any mention of looking at anything.

    Further, your resolute insistence that there is a lack of convincing evidence for any Chi manipulation techniques indicates either an unhealthy combination of closemindedness and ignorance, or a simple insistence on being a contentious ass.

    Among other things, acupuncture has been used as anesthesia during surgery, blocking the pain signals conducted by the nervous system by the placement of needles in a (according to you) non-existent meridian system. Allowing patients to remain conscious and conversant with surgeons as they were cut open with scalpels.

    Further, here's a link to an article which mentions Bill Wallace's experience with acupuncture. While not scientifically validating, it offers at least some anecdotal evidence, and since it involves the object of your man crush, I thought it particularly relevant.

    Last edited: Jul 3, 2011
  2. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Looking at your hand or thinking about it. Either way, it's a pretty weak attempt to demonstrate the existence of Chi as it's typically defined in traditional Chinese medicine, Taoist world view or internal martial arts. My point was that it's pretty obvious one will have an increased awareness of a body part (a hand, in your example) by focusing their attention on it.

    My insistence that there is a lack of convincing evidence for any Chi manipulation techniques is because there is no convincing evidence for such techniques. But please, continue to skirt around this fact with your ad hominem arguments.

    Sources please.

    LOL @ "according to me." No, according to the wider scientific and medical community. You want a source? Fine:

    I direct your attention to the third-to-last paragraph, specifically, "There is no scientific evidence for the existence of Qi or meridians."

    Believe it or not, there is a proven method for patients to remain conscious and conversant with surgeons as they're cut open with scalpels. It's called local anaesthetic.

    For what it's worth, I don't buy into that story one iota. It may come as a surprise but I don't read Bill Wallace's life story like the bible.
  3. Bob Klein

    Bob Klein Valued Member

    Chi-gung Usefulness

    Chi-gung movements or stances are just the outside form of the practice. This practice is designed to correct an abnormality in many people (yes, abnormality!), in which your attention is locked in the thinking process. There is very little connection of attention to the internal workings of the body in modern people, except in the grossest sense.

    Exercises such as Pilates and Yoga are designed, not only to make you more fit, but to allow your attention (mind) to re-join the body. Chi-gung is designed not only to reconnect your attention to the body, but also to be able to make your movements originate from any point in the body.

    As an example, most martial artists originate their movements from the shoulder area. As we all know, movements should originate from the center (tan-tien) of the body and the root (connection to the ground).

    But even when you gain enough skill to originate from the ground and center, the body tends to lock in order to move, so the movements are stiff. Chi-gung trains you to develop a "center" in each part of the body so that when you move, each part of the body has enough independence to move appropriately to keep the body loose and to maintain connection to the root.

    This in turn requires that each movement is learned by each part of the body so that you develop muscle memory as in any sport. The chi-gung magnifies the awareness of each part of the body so that it can learn easier and with higher resolution.

    But it must be taught by a competent teacher, not just someone who teaches you to wave your arms about. The teacher should have a thorough background in the mechanics of the body and also in the mechanics of attention itself. He must be aware of the issues relating to how to bring the student to the point of strengthening his body attention (Body-Mind) and allow him to release the addictive and desparate clutching to the thinking process.

    You use a lot of energy pushing and shoving your own body around to make it do the right movements. But at some point you need to trust that the body knows what it is doing. Otherwise you will be pushing and shoving yourself harder and faster but in so doing, you will become your own opponent. Without proper chi-gung there is little progress in Tai-chi-Chuan sparring.

    I do the system called, "Animal Exercises" or "Zookinesis", and have been teaching since 1975.
  4. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Mr. Klein, that sounds like what comes under the umbrella of what was formerly more oft referred to as hei/noi/nei gung-power development exercises.Tho' all the subject matter isn't just about power development,per say.(That sentence wasn't for you).
  5. All the same eh? No doubt you are confused VZ!

    Did you mean: "So far, science is powerless to confirm their existence"?

    Watch the step!

  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Once again you have too much of an agenda to be neutral or "interested" Fred - we are saying there is no proof that chi exists...and that is a fact because there isn't.

    An anecdote is not proof and the plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence"

    Fred you claim to have an open mind yet display an inability (or just unwillingness) to grasp the fact that chi has failed to be demonstrated in the tests it has been exposed to - are you open to the possibility it just does not exist? Or does that not fit within what you deem an open mind?

    Name me one "chi" attribute that cannot be duplicated elsewhere by another means. If chi exists, show it - I am very open to evidence of it's existence.

    But you may have to accept the fact that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
  7. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Oh no, don't make be believe that Chi doesn't exist!
    Don't take away my Chi!

  8. Osu,

    To borrow your words Hannibal, you assume way too much...
    Yet you are right on the point that I am not neutral, I am pretty much inclined not to take into account most of what you are trying to sell: you worked very hard at it!

    I have not claimed anywhere that chi exists nor that I or anyone else could prove anything.
    What I have done, is:
    - Question your absolute certitudes that because it has not been proven, it does not exist; this closes the door to further, possibly "yet to come", future elements.
    - Suggest several directions for further explorations and discussions.
    - openly stated my curiosity and desire to understand, research and discover more.

    You have successfully crowded the discussion and imposed your point of view that any thread related to chi must be silenced because you resent that some snake oil salesmen are taking advantage of a few gullible idiots. The scope of western science stops here and now with you. Pure arrogance!
    Thumbs up Hannibal, Vanzandt and MA47: your self condoned righteousness has prevailed; MAP unwritten policy seems to be that anyone that does not abide by your precepts and dares to diverge from your dogma shall be subjected to relentless bullying!

    Last edited: Jul 4, 2011
  9. Osu,

    Not because this thread has become boring - even it has - but because yawning cannot be explained... Yes, yawning is not understood, nobody knows why we yawn with precision.
    Some theories exist, but none is conclusive!

    Placebo effect...........
    On the surface, it is easy to imagine how it works... yet, there is more to it, and it cannot be explained with today's state of knowledge.
    - Some believe that it does not exist; that the patient would have gotten better without seeing a doctor.
    - Others say the placebo effect may just be us unconsciously ignoring or repressing symptoms so we please our doctors.
    In other words, we don't really know...

    How do we explain that the placebo effect seems to have increased since its discovery?
    Don't look, we don't have a clue!


    What does it has to do with Chi?
    I don't know........................................ Maybe the Hannibal, VanZandt and MartialArtist47 bully clique will force contrive us to agree that yawning and placebo effect don't exist after all!

    Last edited: Jul 4, 2011
  10. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Yawning is a reflex of simultaneous inhalation of air and stretching of the ear drums followed by exhalation. It is a symptom of an as yet unknown cause or causes. You can't compare Chi to yawning because it (Chi) is a cause rather than a symptom. It is an unverifiable cause and should be treated as such. I view any unverifiable cause of yawning in the same light as Chi: It is not (yet) proven to be true and therefore the argument against its existence carries more weight. Yes, it's possible to say it could exist but I think it's correct to say no evidence supports its existence and it does not exist until such evidence surfaces. The problem with Chi is that the symptoms of this unverifiable cause can be easily attributed to other verifiable causes. I don't really have (much of) a problem with folks who are open to the idea of Chi; heck, I'd (probably) change my mind if someone produced hard evidence to support their hypothesis. My gripe however is with tools who are adamant Chi exists without a shred of evidence to back it up. It reminds me too much of religion, which is a subject for another 20-page thread entirely. But I don't understand why you're comparing yawning to Chi, a symtom to a cause, if that is actually what you're trying to do. I'm not really sure to be honest. :confused:
  11. Osu eminent VanZandt,

    Hopefully ridicule doesn't kill... No one (outside of you) knows if yawning is at cause or effect, and of what... yet, that doesn't stop you from being assertive... (Stretching the ear drums? I don't know about that, but you are THE stretchin' specialist, so I won't argue ;))

    You say that "it is possible to say that it (Chi) could exist..."
    I respectfully disagree: it has been my experience on MAP that it is NOT possible to say that without incurring the wrath of the resident bullies.

    Then you continue: "... but I (you) think it's correct to say no evidence supports its existence"
    Yes, indeed (although there are elements in support of it, there is nothing conclusive), however, the following: "...and it does not exist until such evidence surfaces..." is imprecise. Whether Chi exists or not is not really dependent on our knowledge of evidence.

    "...The problem with Chi is that the symptoms of this unverifiable cause can be easily attributed to other verifiable causes."
    Yes, it is truly a problem... does that mean these are the only causes? Maybe, but we do not know for sure (yes I am familiar with Ocam's razor); I've stated elsewhere that my interest resides in exploring this area............ unfortunately, my attempts have been relentlessly frustrated.

    Last edited: Jul 4, 2011
  12. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    For someone to come out and state;

    self condoned righteousness has prevailed; MAP unwritten policy seems to be that anyone that does not abide by your precepts and dares to diverge from your dogma shall be subjected to relentless bullying!

    bully clique will force contrive us to agree that yawning and placebo effect don't exist after all!

    Because a few do not agree with Chi and post opposite to others, this is a bully? For every poster "pro-chi" whom posted, there were those who posted in response. I dont see where this is bullying. I dont see where this is forcing people to "abide" by any precepts.

    Because "Pro Chi-ers" who cling onto their beliefs, and this is a open forum, why cannot be those who oppose?

    I would think, for someone to stoop so low as to call someone bully or forcing precepts, or any such manner, clearing indicates, they really do not have any further intelligent thing to say upon the subject.

    This clearly is an indication that they are not winning, so they retort to calling someone a "bully'

    (The last time I had sparred a martial artist from a different style, and he could not best me, he called me a "bully")

    The "anti-Chi-ers" must be gaining momentum.

    :dunno: :bang: :woo: :p ;) :love: :D :eek:

    :hammer: :lowblow: :fight3: :fight1: :argue:

    :whistle: :pirate: :jawdrop: :whistleblower: :kick:

    :happy: :banana:

    :hail: :cool: :hat: :thinking:
  13. Osu,

    Argh! This is so disappointing to read your post... :(
    Don't expect to be taken seriously!

  14. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    The same goes for "pro-chi'ers"

    This is so disappointing to read their posts... :(
    I don't expect to be taken seriously!

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