Challenge to Silat Community

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Silatyogi, May 3, 2007.

  1. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Bart? OK, yeah. Wow. It has been a long time. I only came out as a Transphibian recently and got the wart implants, webs and three foot sticky tongue :D

    The whole "carrier" thing was something I cleared with Paul de Thouars back when I first did the old Bukti site. He said that that was accurate, so I put it in.
  2. TalkwithThunder

    TalkwithThunder New Member

    "Carrier system" may have been accurate then, or misunderstood. Just to let you know, it is probably a great way to make a BN player get angry now (which isn't necessarily hard.) To us it sounds more like sarcasm or slander. Bart
  3. TalkwithThunder

    TalkwithThunder New Member

    PDT is a patient man. He allows people to hang around for a long time, wanting them to come to his understanding and way of thinking. He wants them to step up to the plate. Looking back on it, I think I was given the title of Guru early. I knew the stuff that was necessary, I could take care of myself, and I was a decent teacher. I didn't understand PDT ways or much of the culture of the art. I believe I was given the title to grow the art and with the belief that I could grow into my title. I believe this is the case with many of the people that have come into this art from the early years. Certainly, they were the senior students. Certainly, they had "all the jurus". I did, too. Certainly, they could function to some degree (great or small). PDT wanted more from them and for the art.
    Hanging around doesn't mean much either. As I said PDT is patient. I can say that I have trained in this art for 15 years. It doesn't necessarily mean a lot. I'll give you three examples. One guy has 20+ years, in the first two to four years he was good, much was expected of him and much given. He trained 2 to 3 times per week. He taught a little of this and that. He then slowly faded away, but he did hang around. In the end he rarely showed up more than 2 or 3 times a year and then he only videotaped. Example two trained for 15 years, did what he was told, but lived a long way off. He taught what he had been taught to the best of his ability. He travelled to any seminar or meeting that he could. In the last 2 years, he has been fortunate enough that a senior student and teacher has moved into the area and he can train 2-3 times per week. Example three has trained for 18 years, 12+ of which were directly under PDT or a senior student [/B]5 to 6 days per week. Too anyone not in our organization, 20 years sounds awesome, but it may not really mean as much as you think.
    From a previous analogy I have used, the bus has moved on. Stuff is revealed in PDT time, not ours. It takes patience for him so that we can gain the foundation we need. It takes patience and diligence from his students. I believe PDT does what he feels is necessary to keep his art intact and not let it get watered down; it is his job as lineage holder. He is not open to giving his art out, as he feels he has been deceived.
    To go along with your analogy we might say, "Man those guys can really play guitar, but why are they only using 3 strings?"
    On a lighter note, have I said that BN is open for anyone to train in?
  4. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member


    I play all 7 of my strings on my guitar. :)
    Last edited: May 5, 2007
  5. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Holdsworth got some of his fretboard "Silat" from Ollie Halsall
  6. SundaWarrior

    SundaWarrior Valued Member

    A question for you guys. Maybe tellner can help me out. Do you guys know what was the name of the village where the DeVries learned Serak? It may be in a previous thread but I would rather just ask again. It was the DeVries who taught the Dethours brothers, correct?

  7. tellner

    tellner Valued Member


    I don't recall the towns they lived in. Sorry about that.

    The way we've been told is that Johan de Vries had other priorities. His sons John and Ventje were the most involved in Sera. They taught the de Thouars brothers.
  8. SundaWarrior

    SundaWarrior Valued Member

    Thank you tellner, I would love to make it out to Portland some time to train with you guys - maybe next year.
  9. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    That would be wonderful we'd be really happy to meet you in person!
  10. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    By the way, Bart, that also applies to you in spades. If you or yours can ever make it out to the upper left corner of the map I'll be really angry if you don't stop by. First round of whatever you're drinking is on me, and we'd be glad to work out, introduce you to the locals or just sit and chew the fat whatever's your pleasure.
  11. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Real Story

    Guru Plinck teaches in his garage, and he charges not for the art, but a little bit for his time, and asks a lot less than "commercial" schools. It would be a bargain at twice the price. The class is small, and he isn't out recruiting new students. If you don't know somebody, you aren't likely to hear about us.

    For the record, Stevan was born in Holland, of Dutch-Indo roots, and trained in silat before he began study under the Pendekar.

    With all due respect, that's simply not so. Your "camp" has spoken of it high, wide, and repeatedly, from the top down. It is disengenous to claim otherwise.

    Nobody is rationalizing anything away. I was training with Guru Plinck when he was disenfranchised (as was Todd) and the way this was done was ugly. Pendekar Paul never had a more dedicated student, Guru Plinck toed the line for years, did everything the way Paul told him to, and for his reward, was slandered by the Bukti board. When he spoke to Paul about it, Paul shrugged and said he had no control over what the board did.

    Adat and hormat works both ways. Except, of course, when it doesn't.

    But people do understand being booted off the bus because the driver is cranky. The de Thouars are infamous for shooting themselves in the feet, they could have kept a herd of podiatrists in high cotton over the years. They have cast out or driven away the best and brightest of their students for reasons that may make sense to them, but don't make sense to anybody else.

    I don't claim to know the current state of Bukti. I did study it when it was being taught more than ten years ago, alongside a couple of people who tested and were ranked as entry-level-gurus, all of us trained by somebody who was considered one of the three or four highest ranking teachers at the time. I know that Bukti was derived from Sera. Has the daughter grown up to surpass her mother? Anything is possible, but I haven't seen the evidence of it. The Buki I learned would have had to go a long, long way to accomplish the

    I, personally, not speaking for my group, don't care much for the idea that somebody who spent years and years training on a one-to-one basis, who actually helped *create* the art in which you train, is marginalized by an offhand comment like, "Oh, well, yes, he knows a few things, but the bus has moved on."

    Please. Guru Plinck hasn't been standing on the corner waiting for the Bukti bus to come back -- he's moved on, too.

    And even so, he never says a bad word about Paul, and has the greatest respect for his abilities

    Yes, it's a family matter, and families don't always treat each other right. When your branch decides to stop bad-mouthing ours, maybe we can talk sensibly.

    You want to discuss the particulars privately, drop me a note. You might not
    have the full story.


    Last edited: May 31, 2007
  12. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    de Vries

    We were taught that the de Vries family plantation, which grew primarily tea, was in the Garut District, West Java, and that was where the family began to learn the art, probably at, or just after the turn of the 20th century. I don't know the name of the local villages.

    Ian Wilson, who wrote his doctoral thesis about Tjimande (Cimande) mentioned in an email that was posted to a public site that Sera(k) was found in that district.

  13. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Right on Steve,

    Guru Cliff teaches also not for the money and out of his living room. When he does charge it's a small donation for his time. He is not out to make millions of his art.

    As for my class I charge less than $6/ per hour in class to my students. Some because of financial difficulties pay what they can. I make my actual income by running a recording studio and doing musical productions for bands & television. As much as i Like bodyguard work and security work the pay is not always worth the potential bullet you might get protecting rappers.

    As for the Silat ..I know My teacher is not in it for the "money" and neither is Guru Plinck.

    Also there is no 'Board fee", "maintaining of ones credential test fee etc". You either know your stuff or you don't teach. End of story.

    Indeed, and thank god for that cause the art of Silat is not limited to just "Buktibus".

    Guru Cliff he has not stopped to wait for the BuktiBus either.


    Santiago Dobles
    Last edited: May 31, 2007
  14. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Steve and Santiago have already said just about everything that needs to be mentioned. I really have to admire their restraint through all of this.

    I will offer a couple things for your consideration.

    I've been with Steve Plinck for a while now. Before that I was affiliated with Victor and Willem de Thouars via another teacher, Brandt Bollers. Brandt has the ugliest Silat I've ever seen but is the first guy I'd want to have my back in a fight, more than Phil Messina, more than Steve Plinck, even more than Paul de Thouars or Cliff Stewart (and that's saying a lot). He was the one who urged me to study with Guru Plinck. That's the advice of a guy who has more experience and has survived more bad scrapes than I really care to think about. Take it for what it's worth.

    Over the last fifteen years Guru Plinck has certainly not been standing still. Some of the apparent changes are a result of my own changing understanding. There are things which were there all along but which I wasn't developed enough to see. But some of it is the inevitable development of a high-level practitioner. His movement has become more efficient and sparer. His form is disappearing. That doesn't mean his skills are deteriorating and what he does looks awful. It's something very different. Ten or fifteen years ago I'd look at him and say "Silat player, Serak stylist". Now the content is there - he moves very efficiently, and when he chooses to show his form it's extremely clean and precise. He still shows intention. But the movements look less like answers from a particular style and more "whatever is most efficient".

    A lot of people talk about "casual competence" and "formless mastery". He doesn't talk it, but its development has been unmistakable. If you're fortunate enough to train with PDT you'll see the same thing. Something happens. People fall down. It doesn't look like a particular style or system, just what is appropriate at the time with no wasted motions and nothing extraneous. Obviously Mr. de Thoaurs has been doing this for a terribly long time, and his advanced skills and understanding show. It's been interesting to see one of his students start heading down the same road.

    This isn't something you can do without having put in the time and sweat to internalize the formal system and make it your own. You have to have some very good skills. This isn't a Silat thing, a Serak thing or a martial arts thing. It's a classic (advanced) stage of development in any field that has some depth like chemistry, cooking, carpentry or conga drumming.

    It doesn't take anything away from Paul, Danny, Larry, Vahid, David, Tim or anyone else. If Paul de Thouars could turn out a student like that it speaks volumes about his own skill as a teacher and practitioner and it means that others with the same drive can do the same thing. Skill and hard work are not a zero-sum. For one person to have them it is not necessary to degrade someone else. There's not some tiny stash of Silat that has to be cut up and hoarded.
  15. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    Sometimes student's and teacher's grow apart and that is just what has happened here. Really all parties should try to man up so to speak, be friends and be happy for each other. Let the bickering go by the wayside would be my advice.
  16. SundaWarrior

    SundaWarrior Valued Member

    Thank You Steve,

    I was just curious. I have actually been to Garut studying Panglipur, but i didn`t really ask anyone about Serak (although Serak is one of the contributing styles of Panglipur). I am on my way back to Indonesia as I write to study Cikalong in Cianjur, but I will also visit my Panglipur family in Garut maybe they know of the DeVries ? Well, i appreciate your help.

  17. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Trip to Java

    Have a good trip, Nick. I don't expect they use the "k" on Sera there, but if you come across any information, feel free to pass it along, I'd love to hear it.

  18. basilek

    basilek New Member

    Hi Nick,

    I'm new in this forum and this is my first post. I'm in Jakarta. You're right, to learn Cikalong you must go to Cianjur. But if you want to know about Sera, as far as I know, you can't find it in Garut.... :D

  19. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Indeed Nick We would all love to hear about it!
  20. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Steve, you might want to talk with Bobbe about the Sera he learned in Bandung.

Share This Page