Chalenge no 1- explain how this is done without meditation and chi kung (prana work)

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by leftwingtaoist, Dec 16, 2011.

  1. leftwingtaoist

    leftwingtaoist Valued Member

    putrid you can get things in many different ways. internal martial arts are the easiest and most direct way to get internal martial principles. and also they are the fastest way to develop your tendons. mike was great when he was young. will he be great when he is 50, 70? i am 46. i can't use muscles like 20 year olds. but i can use my tendons and my structure and my internal and external awarenes, and my speed. and i will be able to do it when i am 90. this is why i do what i do.

    as for how our mind can fight against us and how people can use that to control us here is example from systema. no chi balls. just our mind bening slightly bent so that it starts working against ourselves. it is fun to watch.

    [ame=""]SystemaRyabko Russian Martial Art Moscow - YouTube[/ame]

    one of the comments below:

    Anyone CAN escape, you are right. It's not about if the person can escape the actual physical hold, since the only "hold" being applied is from the student himself.
    It is about the manipulation of the fundamental need for physical control of our own bodies through exploits of basic psychological and bio-mechanical properties.
    The monkey holds on to the food and stays trapped, simple as that.
    Applying it with stick work successfully and consistently? An art form of its own...
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2011
  2. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I used to train in Systema.Mikhail can do some very weird things but I am sure a lot of it is down to suggestion.
  3. leftwingtaoist

    leftwingtaoist Valued Member

    it is. he actually explains how it is done.
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    So in other words of absolutely no use combatively
  5. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Mike will still be able to destroy 90% of the worlds population in a fight at 60.
    and he will still possess the same skills and knowledge later in life.
    if he keeps up a decent level of training and clean lifestyle he'll still be healthy.
    the main argument i see from the "internal MAs will keep you healthy as you get older" crowd is that external MAs athletes are unhealthy when they're older. this is only cos they stop training and eat crap cos they loose motivation because they had careers based on sport - this is an observed phenomena in sport.
    if you retired you'd expect a decline in the work related activities you did when you were working. athletes trained while working and now they've retired many dont see the need.

    And systema is a terrible example to use for various reasons - one being the number of bad practionners.
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Gene Lebell & Dan Inosanto - both could hand me my ass on a saucer and still have time to make a pot of tea
  7. leftwingtaoist

    leftwingtaoist Valued Member


    most external martial artists stop because after certain age you can't rely on your muscles any more and that is all they know. a lot of ema people switch to ima as they get older for that reason.


    no it was not meant to be used in combat. the idea was to show what can your own mind do to you after you are put in unexpected position. view it as a mind body connection experiment. it just explains all those videos you posted about chi balls and no contact fighting. although some of them had actual fa jing applications.

    and yes many people can do it.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2011
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    You mean those videos with people actingfake to a fake power and someone presenting as a real power? (yes, as you can tell I HATE them BS demos)

    Derren Brown is more impressive than ANY of these guys IMO


    Last edited: Dec 17, 2011
  9. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    *facepalm that explodes my head*

    muscles are what you use to move...

    please explain you reasoning with examples and references of how you came to such an odd conclusion about EMA and IMA
  10. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Muscles atrophy as you get older.Tendons hardly atrophy at all and its the reason a lot of elderly people still have a strong grip.
  11. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    that explains nothing about ema or ima or the claim made by LWT.

    wrestling is considered EMA yet it is the most skilful MA i've ever trained in and once a good level of skill is reached it hardly uses strength but more techniques and skill.
    Many wrestlers that wrestle in to old age blow LWT claim out the water.

    In fact the understanding of EMA/IMA is moot.
  12. Oddsbodskins

    Oddsbodskins Troll hunter 2nd Class

    Naaw that's just about changes in their sex lives.
  13. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    They are still effective because they have strong connective tissue through...err...wrestling.In fact its one of the best disciplines for strengthening connective tissue.

    The term "internal" was coined by the founder of my tai chi school,Sun Lutang,but even he admitted internal and external blurred at times.All it refers to is the origin of the source of power.The nearer its point of origin to the core the more internal it is.The truth is beginners are always external whilst skilled practioners are more internal.LWT has his opinion on what is internal and I have mine.
  14. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I think I may sig this.

    you explained it perfectly.
  15. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    plus 1, I agree ,

    You also develop a high awareness of the other persons intentions before they move.
  16. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    I think at high levels anything can it be internal, only beginnings are external, in order to develop internal awareness and control you need a feedback system of prolonged contact. Very few arts have this prolonged contact in there training practice, a few are of the ones with the most prolonged contact are, wrestling, push hands and chi-sau.

    The prolonged contact with little movement helps you develop the control of using the internal manipulation of mind and body to neutralize your opponent and counter.

    So people like Gracie can be IMA also, because their training method has this feedback system, is it the most efficient way to develop it ??....., that is debatable , looking at effort, energy and time put in to get results.
  17. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    When Tyson starts practicing the additional or "internal" (if you wish,) mechanics developed in various systems and works them into his overall mechanics I'll buy he's an "internal" fighter.Not that he needs to bother.

    I agree with Hwa, but I don't think top level athletes in most fields are doing those funny mechanics either.

    note-Chen,Pan-ling's system is around,it just doesn't have the ubiquity of the main systems one sees. A friend of mine studied in Rochester NY in the 80s with an instructor named Kai Sung ( or something similar). It caught the fancy of some of the guys like Wang,and Hung,I-hsiang. Possibly simply because it was from Chen,which I guess would be a good enough reason.Hung did his teacher's PK and HI,but not his TC,he did Chen,P-l's instead.

    LeftWing-it may interest you to know that Jack Dempsey once kod two would be robbers-when he was 72,and seated in a taxi. Guess he could still bring it somewhat. Which goes back to Zaad's statements about Tyson,or anyone really,staying active,healthy,etc.

    If we're gonna have a TCC app thread or whatever can anybody contact Cloudz? If he knows it's going on he'd probably swing by. I'll try but the constant timeouts I get when trying to connect here make it difficult to get involved much.
  18. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Possibly closer to yiquan than tai chi,at least in terms of releasing force.

    I think his mechanics are specific to his style and the quarter body movement takes a lot of training so its unlikely to be found in most sports.I think he was talking in general terms about movement originating in the core.His frame,especially in the compact form, is very tight,in fact tighter than in any style I have seen,and I doubt if those mechanics could be applied in a larger frame.[/quote]
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  19. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Just for the sake of completion ... there exists the other way of looking at it that pre-dates Sun Lutang. "Internal" meant that it was indigenous to Taoist China, and that "external" meant that it was imported concepts with the arrival of Buddhism (Boddhidharma).

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