Chalenge no 1- explain how this is done without meditation and chi kung (prana work)

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by leftwingtaoist, Dec 16, 2011.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Very nice...mayhap we should start a Combat Taiji thread. I would be up for it!

  2. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Bow Sim Marks teacher and the son of one of the most famous Chinese boxers.His father had a reputation as a highly competent fighter.
  3. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I am a bit busy right now, but I will look into this more when more time is abvailable -I think this really needs to be done.

    In the mean time Niall explaining a lot of Wudang TCC starting from Begining Style.

    [ame=""]Traditional technique - Beginning Style.MOV - YouTube[/ame]

    I think I posted this in another thread before.
  4. embra

    embra Valued Member

    1) Combat TCC - Yes. Why is TCC only for pensioners?
    2) WANG SHU JIN - Yes - I think he was renown as much for his Bagua and Hsing Yi as his TCC.
    3) More Tai Cheese - no.
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    True, but it's Wang so I don't care!

    Big LOL at "Tai Cheese"
  6. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Can you guys start a Combat Taiji thread. im realy liking the stuff im seeing.
    the "old tai chi" vid was awesome.
    that girl had some great use of footwork and elbows.
  7. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Wang Shu Jin defeated Kazuo Chiba (koyo's principle Aikido teacher.) I trained a couple of times with Chiba - tangling with him was akin to tangling with a tornado and hurricane all in one. Wang Shu Jin must have had some remarkable skill.

    There are variant reports on this now - I think in 2 basic flavours, but here is a basic reference:-

    I think Wang Shu Jin's principle TCC teacher was Chen Pan Ling - I believe there are still folk teaching this TCC.
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter



  9. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Will try to Zaad, but as stated earlier I am very busy - it requires a lot of thought to have a sensible discussion about TCC, but as you are a Judoka, you will see what this about - unbalancing the opponent, evasion and timely interception. There is more - the truelly internal martial aspects are more difficult to discuss - better to experience them for real.

    Here is Ian Cameron who I will train with tomorrow.
    [ame=""]Five Winds Tai Chi Chuan - YouTube[/ame]

    and Dan Docherty, Ian Cameron with Cheng Tin Hung (a long time ago - film quality not brilliant)
    [ame=""]Cheng Tin Hung , Edinburgh 1986 - YouTube[/ame]

    and Cheng Tin Hung (with a bit of Movie-Fu for the cameras - but you can see a lot of how TCC works here)
    [ame=""]Practical Tai Chi Chuan - Grandmaster Cheng Tin-hung - YouTube[/ame]
  10. embra

    embra Valued Member

    In the 1st Hannibal's 3 vids of Wang Shu Jin, he is demonstrating the results of years and years of decicated 'internal' neigung training, followed by what I think is swimming dragon from Bagua - my experience of Bagua is limited so I could be wrong.

    However both attributes are small but remarkable examples of what Nejia MA (generally taken to be TCC, Bagua and Hsing Yi) is about - or at least for me, can't speak for anyone else.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2011
  11. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Thanks embra.
    when you're free i hope you do get round to starting a thread!
    as for judo... yeah... i rarely train in it after i discovered freestyle wrestling but i do see LOADS of great cross overs with combat taiji and judo and a number of similarities in wrestling.
    i see a lot of unbalancing and i love the sweeps im seeing. i really looks quite technical.

    you arent based in scotland are you embra?
  12. ShangChi

    ShangChi KRAV MAGA!

    Definitely there if a combat taiji thread's created.

    Some of the best nights at my taijiquan class are the ones where we spend so much time on applications, combat drills and tossing each other around that we run out of time and don't do any form.
  13. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Wow! Some very interesting stuff in here. Much of the concept/set up/theory wouldn't be all that out of place in Muay Thai or boxing or for that matter... gasp... MMA. Very interesting post. The rest of the videos he's posted are fascinating. I'd be real curious for a WMA swords practitioner to look at the concepts/techniques and see how they compare/differ/mirror the WMA sword work.

    Thanks for the post!!!
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Tai chi, Bagua and Hsing I are fascinating from a combatives viewpoint - I have an absolute fascination with the reality of them as opposed to the myths that were - and still are - propogated
  15. embra

    embra Valued Member

    PolarBear trained with some of my TCC brethren in Scotland, so he would be the obvious fellow to comment on WMA vs TCC.
  16. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I live in Scotland, but I am often working away from home - the last 2 years have mostly been in France. TCC specifically and MA in general has had to be fitted in around this with a lot of different teachers and sometimes with a lot of travelling to TCC classes.

    Currently, I am very busy with studies and working at home (for the 1st time in 8 years - bar 1 months work) and training is becoming more difficult to find time for.
  17. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    cool. i talked to polarbear and having been meaning to get out to glasgow to train with him but i've had loads of uni work!
    from what i understand he's trained MT to competitive levels, Aikido with Koyo and now does WMA sword work. i didnt realise he had done TCC too!
    i really have to go train with that guy!
  18. leftwingtaoist

    leftwingtaoist Valued Member

    this is soo cool.

    how did this turn into martial tai chi thread i don't know, but i am soo glad. it seems that the attitude towards internal martial arts is changing. great.

    what i don't understand is what connection does conversation about human ability to consciously interact with and control internal biological processes have with chi balls and no contact fights? i don't think i ever mentioned anything like this? if you look at the martial stuff that i posted i never mention any chi balls and projections and such stuff in fighting applications? and also in many threads about internal martial arts i talk about internal principals not mystical forces.

    it is good that you are so impressed by what internal martial arts can do. they can do it because they understand and use internal martial arts principles, like full body power, shocking power, sinking, connecting, yielding. No mystical forces. But to acquire these skills, you need to be able to: empty your mind, be able to feel your body, every part of your body and every part of opponents body and how they interact. You need to be able to control every part of your body, in order to use it effectively. You can achieve this through many different ways, but the easiest and fastest way is through meditation, of which tai chi is the moving part. The reason why tai chi is practiced slowly is that it is easier to keep your mind clear and focused and it is easier to feel and control your body when you move slowly. Once you acquire certain level of these skills you can retain them even when you move faster.

    Please start martial tai chi thread. As I said once tai chi chuan means supreme boxing. No mysticism. :)
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    No you don't need ANY of that - you are completely missing the point of what has been said.

    No-one ever decried so called "Intenral" systems - it is the explanations that get challenged. Chi as a concept of bodily co-ordination is plausible, demonstarble and repeatable. As an "energy" it isn't

    I am not an internal stylist, but can "duplicate" such patterns and behaviour without trying because I fight naturally. It is nothing to do with Internal/External, Chi, Prana, Orgone or any other such arbitrary distinction and it is everything to do with correct training.

    I am good at this because I train hard and fight harder. Meditation is not something that i do as part of my martial practice other than focused imagery at the end of a class
  20. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    One of best "internal" fighters I have ever seen is Mike Tyson.He had everything you described above and to the best of my knowledge he didn't practice tai chi.In fact Stephen Hwa,a highly competent tai chi teacher in America,is on record as saying that all top level athletes have developed the same type of fajin as seen in the internal arts.What internal training will do is increase the ability of the non athlete and teach him to be more coordinated.Explosive power comes from the tendons rather than chi and its the reason a lot of old Chinese martial artists are still very capable strikers.The tendons remain strong into old age.The truth is as you get older its harder to produce chi so its pretty obvious that its not chi that is powering older martial artists.

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