Chalenge no 1- explain how this is done without meditation and chi kung (prana work)

I offered him that challenge before and he politely declined the offer.

Tummo is extremely difficult to perform.I have over twenty years of chi kung and advanced yoga practice yet it is the one thing I have never mastered despite some serious attempts during the winter months.Tibetan monks who have been subject to experiments have also struggled to produce reliable results.The method does work in a fashion and will certainly allow you to walk around in a shirt in very cold weather but I doubt if it would allow you survive the ordeal of being submerged in a frozen lake for any length of time.

I my humble opinion the claims about tummo were exaggerated to sell books.Alexander David Neel couldn't provide any reliable sources for her claims and to the best of my knowledge had no real skill in tummo herself despite training with monks.Mr Hof has always said he never had formal training in tummo and was able to bear the cold without any formal training.

 

It's interesting. There's a big difference between being submerged in the water of a frozen lake (which is probably below 0 degrees) and being encased in ice (at 0 degrees). Ice is also a very poor conductor of heat, unlike water, so would not draw heat from the body nearly as rapidly.

As for the challenge, I'm still wearing t-shirts at the moment quite happily, and it's only 5 degrees outside today. Does that count?

For real demonstrations, head up north. Geordies wouldn't even see the Iceman's stunts as special.

 

Iceman: To stay warm use your tummo.
Geordie: Are ye callin' us fat like?

 

bunny

you as scientist should know that electro magnetic processes we talk about have completely diferent frequencies from radio waves. if this is the level of conversation you are on that i really have nothing to add.

as for phisiological changes that i have experience in influencing through chi kung and meditation these are:

brain frequency, heart rate, blood preasure and blood flow, body temperature.

i have to state that these are just by products of chi kung practice and are not the goals of chi kung. i practice chi kung because of its health benefits.

putrid just because you can't do it it doesn't mean it can't be done. i can't do 1000 pressups but i know a guy who can.

 

Well...little organisms (midiclorey somethings) exist inside the body. You can't see them, detect them or measure them in any way (so I've no idea how the jed....erm...chinese worked out they were there). However these organisms rush around the blood stream and nerve pathways vibrating. This vibration is passed onto the very cells of the body itself. This causes friction, which as we know causes heat. It's like having a load of tiny Ray Mears inside you. This heat is what causes the body temperature to stay elevated even in cold conditions.

 

There are many brain frequencies. There have recently been discovered that electromagnetic fields in the brain connect physically separated neurons and there is a theory that the majority of the communication within the brain actually happens within an electromagnetic field that surrounds and permeates the brain and not through the synapses. Look it up.
There are frequencies that you can measure using electroencephalograph. You can see the change in those frequencies during meditation and chi kung.
In Ireland they have built equipment that can also measure various other frequencies and they have developed tools for translating thoughts into words and actions. First use is in helping paralyzed people to control electronic equipment. it is like artifficial thelepathy.

 

pasmith we know how heat is generated. how is this process conciously controlled is the question.

 

Blood pressure,heart rate and simple control over body temperature can all be controlled by autogenics,ie,simple suggestions whilst in a relaxed state and certainly dosen't require any advanced chi kung practice.In my opinion autogenics works better than chi kung when it comes to controlling involuntary functions.its not really a big deal.

The truth is there is no real evidence to back up the claims made about tummo other than the performances of Mr Hof.

LBR wrote

You are doing better than me at the moment.

 

So to help move "chi" threads along, i've begun reading a book by Dr. Stephen T. Chang called "Complete System of Self-Healing: Internal Exercise"
I figured that due to Dr. Chang's extensive background in both Modern Medicine and Taoist Medicine, his book would be the most balanced view of Chi Kung and Nei Kung.

So far i have some issues with the book but on the whole it is a very sound book of internal exercises and an enjoyable read.

In relation to this topic - The "iceman" demonstrates chi in the ways described by Dr Chang - he has a good control of his nervous system, not a "force".
It's nothing odd to see this type of control of the nervous system in MANY athletes, it's the partial control of the autonomic nervous system through psychological techniques.
there is a large over lap between the autonomic and somatic nervous system and athletes often control their heart rate, body temperature and other physiological processes through mind techniques.
Meditation is often used with by coaches and athletes.
It's really nothing odd.

Whats odd is this man's control of many processes.
What also makes this interesting is that its an area that has not been studied in detail until recent decades and it is the direct cross over between psychology and physiology and has direct implication to athlete coaching.

 

Zaad wrote

An excellent choice.I first read his book when it was published in the early eighties.

Getting back to Mr Hof,well it seems he has jumped on the money making bandwagon.

http://www.innerfire.nl/method

Looks like part of the method.I bet he never mentions the need for ejaculation control as that would make the product unmarketable.

There are always plenty of mugs ready to part with their hard earned cash.

 

Interesting video about Mr Hof.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKT1Wvz3xm0&feature=related"]Altered State - The Iceman - Vim Hof - YouTube[/ame]

 

I've just seen a bloke in Leeds wearing a string vest, tracky bottoms AND a scarf.
EXPLAIN THAT SCIENCE!!!!!!

 

I mentioned it another thread but we had an individual with an alcohol blood count of .5 in custody and he was not dead

How did this happen? How is ANY of this type of thing explained?



Which is about the same level of evidence certain chi advocates are asking us to swallow

 

You're giving me a nervous tic.

Electromagnetic waves all have different frequencies. Radio, X-ray, and so on are just different labels we stick to different parts of the spectrum.

However the body's electromagnetic field does cause interference with radio signals - low level but noticeable. If you can control your electromagnetic field, as you claim, then you should be able to make notes of this interference. If you lack that level of control, there are other ways to measure.

What do you claim is the frequency of the human body then?

How did you measure this?

These can all be controlled with concentration and focus - probably more easily with training, but training is not required. Untrained people are capable - provided they are given feedback - of controlling their heartbeat to a degree, with affects all other areas you have mentioned.

You'll find that heartbeat, blood pressure and flow, and body temperature change with any form of exercise. Just standing from a sitting position will boost your heartbeat substantially for a moment.

I'd be interested in reading this study, it's been a while since I last studied neurobiology and it'd be good to catch up on the latest findings. Could you provide the paper in question? It sounds like it's likely linked to the brain games that are appearing nowadays.

You can see the change in those frequencies during any sort of conscious (or unconscious) mental process - meditation and chi kung are not special in this sense. Concentrating on a chess game will provoke a change in the electromagnetic emanations of the brain (it's not as simple as just a single frequency, it's a whole pattern of emissions).

No. The first use was in various cheap games. They're looking at refining it for medical use. There is currently no implication of telepathy as there is no way to translate those scans into communication, and vice versa.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/d39f/

Incidentally, no chi is required to play these games.

 

To those of you still posting:

Why are your arguing with someone who accepts the mythology of the force in Star Wars as acceptable science?

PASmith:

LeftwingTaoist:

Thread over.

 

Putrid

If you look at my blog, in the article about the ice man i do talk about autogenics. Believe or not i practiced them when i was 12 (i was always weird). Autogenics uses the power of the mind, to control internal biological processes. It is the same mechanism like chi kung. If in chi kung you dong use your mind, intent and internal feeling you are just waving your hands.

why is it bad to teach this, and it is ok to teach music or maths for instance?

Zaad

I am glad that all of this chi yapping made you decide to investigate it for yourself. I am not being patronising. I think that any knowledge is positive.

You say:

I never said that chi was a force. Chi is described as energies. They can be chemical, pneumatic, elastic electromagnetic, acoustic…in the end underlining process is always electromagnetic. Energy becomes a force when you can control it and harness it to achieve something. chi kung teaches you how to do this.

I agree with you 100%. I don’t think that chi kung or meditation or autogenics is something unexplainable, mystic and magic. Anyone can do it, and a lot of people are doing it. They just call it something else.

It is not odd. It is just not done by many people. The Ice man is actually teaching his method. There are lots of videos out there that show him training with his students. if you want to learn how to do it you can.

Hannibal

There was a man that was born without a brain and he lived happily all his life, had a job family. The absence of brain was only discovered by accident when he had a brain scan for some reason. I recently read that there is a healthy baby, I believe in china which was also born without the brain. There are lots of weird things in the world.

As for alcohol tolerance, that level of alcohol in the blood is what we here in Ireland have before we go out.

Bunny

There is your proof that I have super powers.

m1k

are you for real? ever heard of Mitochondria?

 

Sorry, it wasn't a man without a brain.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12301-man-with-tiny-brain-shocks-doctors.html

So, what he had was a diminished brain capacity and a diminished IQ. Neither of these kept him from a career as a civil servant.

 

m1k

according to the neuroscience books he was not supposed to be allive let alone functioning. that is my point. we don't know how our bodies actually function. we know bits. and we are trying to figgure out the blanks.

for my friend Bunny

In a new paper [1], published in top journal Nature Neuroscience, neurobiologists at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) have confirmed that very weak varying electric fields in brain tissue significantly affect neuronal behaviour.



This is really the first hard neurological evidence that suggests subjecting our heads to significant EMFs (especially the very high electric fields underneath high voltage overhead powerlines and also low frequency magnetic fields from mobile phones that induce low frequency electric fields in the user's brain) may well cause the interference (electromagnetic compatibility, EMC) problems that many people, including us, have suspected [2].

http://www.powerwatch.org.uk/news/20110213-electric-fields-brain-cells.asp

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110202132617.htm