Celebration of increased "tolerance" in martial artists is not a positive thing.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Mr. Tickles, Dec 22, 2021.

  1. Mr. Tickles

    Mr. Tickles Banned Banned

    "The more you train, the more you tolerate."

    As someone who has a long history of being bullied and disregarded in my life, abused for valuing my individuality and integrity.. and as someone who trains.. this statement disgusts me.

    So, lemme get this straight. Because I train, that means I'll have to put on even more of a "mask" than I already do? And for what? "Humility?" "Tradition?" What's the excuse?

    I train so that I can eventually see the day where I no longer need to be afraid of being myself with people, and can confidently NOT tolerate nonsense.

    "The best self-defense is a pair of running shoes."

    No. I've been running away and backing down out of necessity for the past 24 years of my life, and I'm telling you right now that it didn't "teach" me anything positive. It didn't "humble" me. It didn't "discipline" me or whatever you're gonna say.

    Obviously if the other "person" has a knife or a gun then it's a different story. But uhh.. newsflash: we currently live in a "sophisticated" world where nobody actually prepares for violence. They just posture.

    This is part of why content creators like "Fight Science" drove me to the point where I had to block them.

    "An untrained person is actually MORE dangerous and here's wh-"

    Shut up. Seriously. Peace-lover types annoy me. Has anyone kicked his rear yet on video? Because if so, it would do my sanity a lot of good to see it lol.

    That sort of mentality makes me sick. "Real martial artists" back down and let people treat them like crap? Seriously?

    We only have one life.. and a very limited time on this planet. You're telling me that you'd rather spend it shying away from conflict, getting in your own way, because you have "principals?" Get out of my face. ‍♂️

    If you want to be all humble and passive, just don't train and be those things out of necessity. Then hate yourself on your deathbed because you spent your life with your tail between your legs.

    While you're working on that, I'm going to free myself and eventually die satisfied.
    Graywalker likes this.
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Sounds like you need counseling not martial arts.
    Botta Dritta, Mangosteen and axelb like this.
  3. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Tickles, could you tell us whose statements you're responding to? Somewhere we can read it?
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I think there is a truth to training making you more tolerant. Shared challenges bond people, and martial arts attract people from all walks of life.

    Outside of training partners, if you're talking about confidence and aggression, it all depends where you start. Some people are already assertive or aggressive and training is an outlet that calms them in everyday life. Others start off unable to assert themselves as much as they would like, and training can increase increase confidence.

    Never count on martial arts to fix your personality though. There are much better methods for that.
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    So I googled this as an exact quote, and it only appears in some technical analysis of lactate training in cardio.

    Have you made up a quote to get upset about?

    Or have you a different source I couldnt find?
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    That's a very mixed up opening post...lots to unpack.

    So "backing down" isn't so much letting people treat you like crap but more like a tactical withdrawl on your own terms in order to minimise hassle and harm in in your life. That "harm" can take the form or physical, financial, emotional and or legal trouble. It can even be to minimise the harm you would do to another person.
    It is a considered action like a wolf avoiding a bear. It's not an automatic response to any situation like a submissive dog.
    If backing down would cause your ego and sense of self too much pain then maybe not backing down would be for the best. I know I had situations as a kid where I backed down from bullies and wish I had the guts to fight back. It would have done my sense of self the world of good and would have been worth getting a black eye or split lip.
    But as an adult with a job, wife, kids, responsibilities, etc then responding to every slight, insult or challenge would be a ridiculous use of my time and energy. Literally not worth the energy.

    A story I told on here once is illustrative of the general principle of walking softly but carrying a big stick.
    I went to a super seminar with Geoff Thompson, Rick Young, Peter Consterdine, Neal Adams (and some American Dillman reps who are best left unmentioned).
    Brilliant seminar.
    On the way home I stopped for petrol and as I went to pay I literally bumped into someone coming out of the petrol station at the same time I was going in. We both backed away and did the English "dance of politeness" in the doorway. "After you, no after you, no I insist". Eventually I realised this guy wasn't gonna go first so I said thanks and went inside.
    Now to some people these kinds of little concessions and social "oil" are too much. Why should he go first? He should have backed down. Why should I back down? Those kind of situations can turn into violence if you wear your ego on your sleeve.
    The thing is though that other guy didn't know I was a martial artist.
    However I knew the other guy was actually Peter Consterdine. Someone with prodigious martial ability.
    And yet he was very unassuming, very polite and absolutely confident enough to know he wanted to move through life causing as little friction as possible. I've no doubt that if I was some jumped up kid looking for a fight he would have "backed down" in your eyes. But I also know that when it came to it and he needed to fight he would have done that too. Knowing when to do one or the other is what being a martial artist is all about imho and where that line is will vary from person to person.
  7. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    You bet, but I was just curious how you do that little Mars symbol in there? That was a nice piece of punctuation. I'm gonna use that from now on when I really want to stress a point.

    I'll be busy all day trying to figure this out..

    Flying Crane likes this.
  8. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Copy and paste mate ♂️
    Grond likes this.
  9. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I thought it was one of those built in ones, like :) or :D or ;). It shows up completely differently on the PC versus mobile. On PC it's yellow and fat, on the mobile device it's minimalist black.

    Most people don't know what that symbol means other than "male". It's a spear over a shield. It represents Mars/Ares. It got popularized by a scientist who decided to symbolize men with it. It's not a bad approximation, I guess. :D
  10. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I tried to upload some new smiles yesterday, but they need to be XML files and I didn't know how to convert from jpeg.
    Grond likes this.
  11. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian


    As you mature, you realise that actually a lot of "offenses" against you aren't actually worth your time and effort. Once you realise that, you throw your mask away. Nothing to do with humility or tradition. Simple maturity.
    I was bullied severely when I was a teenager, and in my early to mid twenties, I had a similar attitude to you. Stand my ground. Prove my worth. Mercy is for the weak etc etc. I ended up getting into scraps over silly things, and several times nearly got seriously injured by knives because of it. I didn't realise knives were involved when I was standing my ground, and then poof, there's a blade slashing down my arm.

    Nowadays, I walk away from 99.99% of confrontation, because I recognise that it's not worth it. It's a much more peaceful life.

    All you time you're feeling to need to save face, and you're unable to let stuff go, you're afraid.
    When you're no longer afraid, you won't need to save face.

    I rather like the saying "the best self defense is not being an objectionable douche".
    That doesn't mean you can't stand up for yourself, or you can't express yourself freely. You're just able to do it in a mature fashion without escalating a situation unnecessarily.

    Like I said above, you don't always know a knife is in play, until you're already engaged in the confrontation.

    I don't know what/who Fight Science is - but blocking people who irritate you irrationally is a valid way of dealing with it, as long as you're able to let it go afterwards. And you understand the potential downsides of not listening to alternative view points and considering what they are.

    I imagine I'm annoying the heck out of you then! :D
    Again, I don't know who you're referring to specifically. But maybe, if "peace-love types" annoy you, is it perhaps a touch of envy? They're able to live without the need to prove themselves that you suffer from?

    No, "real martial artists" [insert definition here] know which battles are worth fighting, and which hills are worth dying on. Same as mature adults.

    You're right - only one life (except for those pesky Buddhists! :mad:) so why waste it pursuing confrontation and trying to prove yourself in situations that don't need it?

    Every day we experience things. Some of these experiences are positive, some are negative – but all can go into defining who we are as a person.

    Holding onto experiences, whether positive or negative, however, can have a negative effect on you.

    How many times, when a child doesn’t get their own way, do they sit and sulk on the matter? Often at the expense of experiencing other things that are going on around them while they are stuck in their own mud-of-the-mind?

    The universe is like a frying pan, and the experiences within the universe are like hot sausages, sizzling away – tempting us. As such, we can eat the sausages, thereby experiencing things that will feed our development. Sometimes we might get a little burn, because the sausage is too hot, but it’s a short-term thing, and we feel better for feeding ourselves.

    However, the danger comes when we try to cling onto experiences. Like the child told they can’t have a new toy, we cling onto what has happened to us, and we let it start to define who we are;

    We are the person who was splashed with mud, we are the person who just bought an expensive new car. We are the person with a sausage.

    Have you ever tried picking up a freshly cooked sausage, and holding onto it?? What happens? That’s right, it burns your hand, and you have to throw it away, but the pain will remain.

    As humans, we have this ability to dwell on events after they have happened, allowing them to burn us. And, by clinging onto the experience, we never get the nourishment that the experience could potentially give our development. Holding onto a sausage that’s burning your hand, doesn’t fill your stomach, and does your hand no good in the long run!

    So, what is the point of this? Simple…

    When you experience something, whether it is a good experience or not, take it for what it is, and then let it go. If it is a good experience, don’t go trying to recreate it, because by doing this, the experience will just go further away from you. If you have a bad experience, learn from it, but don’t dwell on it. Let it go, and move forwards, onto the next experience.
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    So there are a couple of angles to this.
    Number 1 is that "untrained" does not mean "unskilled". Someone who regularly uses violence in their lives will gain some skill in it without ever setting foot on a mat.
    There are muggers who are essentially professional muggers. It's how they make their money. Or one of the main ways as they are often criminal in other ways too.
    They may not be skilled in the sense of touching gloves and going at it in a ring in a fair fight but they will most certainly understand the psychology and context of the violence they are familiar with better than their targets.
    The physical methods may be crude or limited but they will be context appropriate and pressure tested (unlike the techniques of a lot of "trained" people).
    Secondly, although untrained people will often look awful in fights (off balance, bad reactions, big swings, telegraphs, no clue on the ground, etc), if they are the initiators of the violence they will often possess a willingness to go to extremes of violence without worrying about consequences. Sucker punches, use of weapons, attacking downed or unconscious opponents, stamping, maiming, attacking in groups, opportunistic attacks, etc.
    As such the repercussions for not "winning" or escaping that particular encounter can be particularly bad.
    A trained fighter may KO you or drop you with a leg kick and leave it at that.
    An untrained fighter, if they are able, will soccer kick your unconscious head without mercy if they get the chance.
    Obviously these are big generalisations but under-estimating "untrained" people is not the right thing to do.
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Re fight science, he's talking about a YouTube channel.

    He's so upset at a random Channel producing normal content, he's blocked them......

    As I said, you want counselling not martial arts practice.
    Grond, axelb and Botta Dritta like this.
  14. Mr. Tickles

    Mr. Tickles Banned Banned

    "Normal content," he says.

    "Communism will work this time," he says.
  15. Mr. Tickles

    Mr. Tickles Banned Banned

    A lot to unpack here. So I'm gonna sum up my thoughts by asking what kind of life is one where you aren't sticking it to somebody? Lol.

    There was a time in my life where I wasn't afraid.. because I was a stupid kid who thought he was batman or something.. I was still "trying to save face."

    Except wasn't trying to save face.. I didn't care what people thought.. because that was just who I am. Lol.

    Not getting into confrontation throughout your life sounds boring and unsatisfying.
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    That's actually a pretty reasonable take on self defence, don't underestimate people is good advice.

    The flip side is don't over estimate your ability, which I think is what your doing with your Okinawan Karate teacher, they probably know more then you about violence, and if they don't, why are you taking classes under them?

    If you actually think that way, be a man, and go and tell him, maybe challenge them to a real fight, and show the world what a man you've become?

    Or don't because you know you'll get beaten worse then Boris Johnson in a "not looking like a buffoon competition".
    Grond, axelb and Dan Bian like this.
  17. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    We could equally turn the question around; what kind if life is one where you're constantly having to stick it to someone to feel better about yourself?
    It sounds like the bullied may be becoming the bully?

    Kids are pretty impressive. They don't care what people think of them until society tells them to.
    And they don't need to stick it to anyone, because they are happy simply being.

    To quote a particular Hobbit;

    "It's no bad thing to celebrate a simple life."

    Grond and axelb like this.
  18. Mr. Tickles

    Mr. Tickles Banned Banned

    "hE's mOrE sKilLeD tHaN yOu, tHeREfOrE hE's sMaRtER tHaN yOu."

    Sure buddy. Go ahead and rub one off for being so clever in dEsTrOyInG my argument.

    Such argumentative prowess.

    There are plenty of people out there who can kick my rear, yet think Bruce Lee would last more than five seconds in the octagon.

    The fact that he can beat me doesn't mean a single thing.

    What's so difficult to understand about the desire to smack down punks because it gives YOU pleasure?
  19. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    I love the martial arts, combat, both in person and from a distance and I'm happy that at 41 I've only had a handful of physical altercation outside of training.

    I'm sure many others like me have had a very satisfying experience training in the gym, much moreso than any altercation outside.
    The OP speaks so much of someone inexperienced.
    You want to get into physical conflict, counseling is definitely an option, maybe also you need to work in a style that you get to push it more than your current club.

    To clarify i don't know anything about your current club, I know a lot of valuable karate clubs, but it seems that you need something else.
    Grond likes this.
  20. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    I suppose I just have trouble relating to sociopaths?

    By many definitions, you could certainly be considered a "punk", yet you seem to have taken objection when others have "smacked you down" for their own pleasure in the past?

    For all your talk of freeing yourself, not wearing a mask etc, you are intent on this "hard man" facade, whilst all of us can see straight through it.
    Your young. You've had a tough time in adolesce and found a way of reassserting yourself through martial arts. But you're not freeing yourself from anything. You're still stuck in the same circle as before.

    You didn't die a hero, you've lived long enough to become the villain.
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