Caucasian in my country.

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Ero-Sennin, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I find it strange that you think chastising somebody while providing no real path of education for somebody to look into, while they are asking for help because they clearly feel like there is something off with their mode of thinking as "being talked to like an adult." What some people did was take the big picture of things and applied it to the individual who was largely ignorant of a whoooooollleeee lot of history. Add in the hostility, and as @David Harrison pointed out I'm so glad I didn't find my way to a group of truly problematic people due to them being accepting and caring.

    As an aside for some further context about me personally, my ex wife basically left me to rot in a one bedroom apartment for over a year. I couldn't take care of myself because I was so messed up from injuries incurred in the Marine Corps I was unaware about from an IED blast along with PTSD, exacerbated by the boxing match I got knocked out in (documented in the training log here on MAP). She wouldn't take me to appointments because she had school to do, so I was never able to even figure out what I needed to be treated for. I laid in bed for months, terrified with my cooler of food my ex would give me, only able to get up once a day really to take a dump which was absolute hell.

    I was so hurt when I let myself accept the reality of what she let occur for her own pursuits, that when I started dating again for the first time in my life I told myself I would try to date within my ethnicity so that maybe the relationship would be easier. Maybe the cultural differences was why my ex treated me the way she did.

    Nope.

    The first white girl I've ever seriously dated in my life is now my fiance. Her family is as white as it gets, and it's so much harder for me to understand and feel like I'm a part of things sometimes because their cultural upbringing vs. mine. But they love me, and want the best for me. That part there is what matters, and that's the part of caring about other people I want to put out in the world. Race be damned.

    There were numerous opportunities throughout my life for white supremacists to snatch me up, especially during the period where I was actively seeking something based on ethnicity for the first time in my life due to how hurt I was. I could list you all the ways that would have worked, because I know myself. It probably would have taken years, but it could have happened.

    So let's break down who I am a bit and what I know (because my country taught it to me). I was a scout sniper in the Marine Corps and I like to think I had quite a few people's respect due to my professionalism and competency (potential future network of people to bring in), as well as my willingness to look out for others. I have implemented my training in a combat zone very effectively. I've killed people, and that's a line to cross mentally. I've had people actively try to hurt and kill me in an extreme environment, so I have experience in avoiding that. I know how to make IEDs from scratch because they taught us how IEDs were made from scratch so we could identify IED manufacturing sites. I know tactics, both to create chaos and confusion or to just create a constant state of terror in a population to control it. I'm the type of person that will die for a cause, and actively searches for a cause important enough that death could be a possibility. I have a literal recorded history of this assessment of myself, much of it on MAP.

    Imagine a person like me in the wrong hands, knowing what I know. Some people learned in depth history and cultural/social problems in school during their more formative years (I consider this to be up until the point the brain is fully developed, so around 25). I walked around town and played basketball, worked on construction sites with prior felons, and learned how to kill people for my country. Everything I know about race historically is recent (as it is for a lot of Americans, one only has to browse Facebook to see people being blown away by some of the things that have happened in the past). It's not like I'm a lazy person either, nor am I willfully ignorant. Nobody told me, how was I supposed to know? When I think about this stuff I get angry and belligerent initially because I'm mad I didn't know, so I fight back against that feeling. That's what people do. They don't want to be the jerk that has allowed everyone to suffer, so they try to justify why they aren't that person and why they haven't contributed. Blame shifting is also common when somebody is trying to defend against those realizations. That's what was in initial post of this thread a decade ago.

    Luckily a bunch of jerks at a white methodist church, and a coach that belittled an entire ethnicity while denying me opportunity taught me on an emotional level that the pain of the things done to me in the community I grew up in are done to the people who did it to me in many parts of the United States. A lot of things that were done to me growing up were pretty rough, but I think I'm glad for it because it taught me empathy and protected me from being swayed into extremism. From my experience, very few people are going to process things the same way I did, or have similar experiences due to the community event range of experiences I was privy to. Plenty have the same training though. Plenty have the same kind of abuse and hurt. Plenty are looking for somebody to love and accept them, just like the rest of us.

    Absolutely treat people like adults. "Hey dummy, maybe look up this and this and this. I can't imagine you would know about all these things, and the actual time frame of events and still think those things? If you do know about those things, please express why you think they don't matter because I got a list of reasons why you're freaking wrong" is a lot different than "shut the hell up white boy, you don't even get to talk." I'm not trying to argue for infinite tolerance of people's crap here, just that maybe if a topic like this comes around again we don't create an environment that could force somebody to run into the arms of actual extremism. I don't think it starts with a youtube or facebook algorithm. I think it starts with somebody who has felt so little acceptance and love in their life getting those feelings from people will evil intentions. We often create the opportunities for those people to put their foot in the door. Maybe we let the door crack open but put a chain/bolt lock on so it stays shut at least?
     
    cloudz, bassai, Nachi and 2 others like this.
  2. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    When my fiance and I started dating I think you were one of the first people I mentioned to her as far as people who I somewhat knew from the internet. Not because I'm some weird creeper or that you're some special guy (pffft), but because she was showing me a guy from the UK that did pet drawings and I told her it was crap and showed her the guy from the UK I knew who drew way better.
     
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    [​IMG]

    Aw shucks. I've basically stopped doing pet portraits. Became too much of a burden with a full time job, kids, training, intermittent anxiety and depression....the usual life stuff.
     
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Doh! I'm glad you mentioned it!

    I think that means I've been talking noncesense for years !

    #brasseye
     
    David Harrison likes this.
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    1) This isn't normal, if you still feel that way, you should look into getting some help.

    2) Absolutely it's a good idea, but it's not mandatory, you are just one data point, and
    if as a society we accept too much intolerance, then the Overton window will move to accept that, but if we're such jerks that we push people to the right, that's no good either.

    If you still feel like you want to die for a cause, then your not a former extremist, you are an extremist in waiting.
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    From my perspective, it's not about accepting intolerance, it's about taking the time to question it and giving people the opportunity to learn and grow.

    Chastising and mocking people is treating them like a child in the worst way. It is alienating them without reason or recourse.

    If people understand and continue, or if they are in a position of power to influence others, then I see them as fair game for vicious mockery.

    Think about anyone who has talked about coming out of hateful ideology. I can't think of any that thank personal attacks on their transformation.
     
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    ...even if you think someone doesn't deserve a chance to know better, keep in mind that there is a rabbit hole of hate waiting to invite them in.

    Which side would you rather have in greater numbers?
     
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award


    That's literally the exact opposite to how you should treat kids.
     
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yes, that's why I said "in the worst way".

    It was very common until relatively recently.
     
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    So what your saying is mocking people, if done to "punch down" is bad.


    Yep agree with you there, and worse then that, it just isn't funny.

    Punching up though, can be very funny.......

    And historically is one of the few ways the rich and powerful can be held to account, the right wing especially hate being the targets of this type of humour.
     
  11. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Really? I'm throwing that mindset and energy into trying to help save the monarch butterfly population via producing tons of milkweed (they take 3 years to flower which is annoying -__-), growing native plants/trees for pollinators, and trying to see if I can help out with any sort of study involving biochar and figuring out how to produce it on a large scale to see if it is something that can help impact climate change. If I can be successful doing all of this and make a good amount of money, I want to go out and find people that I think deserve opportunities to develop and grow but don't have the financial resources or knowledge to do it. I want to employ people so I can teach them how to incorporate and empower themselves, so they can stop being an employee. If all of THAT goes well, the fiance and I want to end our lives running a sanctuary farm/turn dessert into habitable land project.

    I'll stop though, because you said it wasn't normal xD. Dying isn't the goal. Something being important enough to die for is. I consider having a family to be that, so it encompasses a wide range of things. I think it might have thrown a red flag up for you because you're right, that's not a normal way people think about things but I didn't mean it in the way a terrorist might mean it. I'm just not going to give years of my life to say . . . Coca Cola working in one of their warehouses. There's nothing wrong with holding a nine to five like that, but it's not for me.

    I like the idea of being an extremist milkweed planter. Gonna' stealth plant all the varieties boooooooooooiiiiii. Gonna' RUIN SOME LAWN LIKE LAWNS HAVE NEVER BEEN RUINED BEFORE!!!!

    To point number two, if that's how you feel then that's how you feel. Nothing wrong with it. I'm certainly not tolerant of others all the time, and sometimes we all just have a bad day. Sometimes we have a lot of bad days for a few years in a row ya'know. Life moves on. I was just trying to throw something out for people to maybe consider, especially during current times where it's pretty easy to radicalize the people looking for meaning in their lives.
     
    Dead_pool and Smitfire like this.
  12. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I'm going to reluctantly dip a toe into this thread.

    Ero-Sennin: I only read the original post really, and haven't read through the rest of the thread.
    I think I get what you are trying to say.

    I think the main thing I'd say to you, if we were having a conversation and you said what is in the original post, is this: If you had been a minority, and put in the same efforts to your life that you did (work hard/etc), your outcomes would not be as good.
    I.e., if you were to clone the universe from the moment you are born, with the only difference is that you are black in one and white in the other, and hit 'play' and play back your life putting in the same effort, making the same dumb mistakes as a kid (I assume you made at least some dumb mistakes growing up/as a teen), and so on, the black 'you' would end up with a worse outcome, due to systemic & individual racial biases.
    To get the same outcome that the white 'you' got, the black version of you would have to work harder and put up with more pressure. Just as a random made up example, maybe white you is having a ****ty day. You stop and get some McDonalds or something on your way home. You eat your meal & leave. You are still in a bad mood.
    Black you, on the other hand, may get that meal & while eating, have some racist person giving you a hard time. Maybe in the past you've been able to just take it in stride and keep your cool, but not today. So you get in a fight. And now you have some legal troubles.
    Even if white you maybe gets in a fight there due to the bad mood & a bad interaction with someone, you don't have the weight of all those prior racist incidents. You may not have quite as severe a reaction. And you are less likely to end up with legal troubles than the black you who gets into the same fight.

    I say this from the perspective of someone who was bullied a lot in school--the incidents add up. I lost my temper BAD a few times as a kid, usually over incidents where looking at just that one incident it seems like I way over-reacted. But it was (at least, as far as I can tell) an accumulation of taking harassment & bullying from people for years.
    And minorities get more incoming incidents; the normal ones we all get, plus the ones motivated by racism (even if subconsciously; maybe someone picks on you in a not-obviously-racist way, but wouldn't have picked on you at all if you had been white).

    So basically: It isn't that you got special benefits for being white. It is that you didn't get special harassment/bullying/harsher treatment/etc for failing to be white. This isn't to say that you don't deserve to be where you've gotten yourself with hard work & trying to be a good person/etc. It is to say that if you hadn't been white, you would have had to work even harder & do more if you wanted to get where you are now.
     
  13. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Oh I see the original post is way old now, so perhaps the conversation has shifted
     
    David Harrison likes this.
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    SEEK HELP IMMEDIATELY o_O

    Have you looked at the Permaculture Association?
     
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Where were you 10 years ago? :D
     
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    If you wanna see a conversation shift try reading the "i date female martial artists" thread. :eek:o_O
     
    Dead_pool and axelb like this.
  17. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    that's what MAP is about in this decade. Thread necro's and conversation shift :D
     
  18. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    remember kids

    Kindness is always the right response.

    May 12th
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
    axelb likes this.
  19. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    who would join an army or fight a good fight not ready to die for the cause..
    it's not "extremism"

    there are many, and many call them heroes
    and who's to say they are wrong.
     
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    People don't join the army wanting to die for a cause, you don't see army recruit posters saying, "join the army and see the next world" they say join the army and see the world, travel, learn, earn good money, all things you can't do when your dead.

    People seeking death is not the norm, if it was the human race would of died out long ago, unless your saying suicide bombers aren't extremists?
     

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