To Halliwell - Thankyou for your post. I had a similiar discussion like this thread (much different though, being that we got to KNOW each other and didn't have to assume anything which leads people to understand what the other is trying to say a bit better and not have to assume things) with somebody I became close friends with while deployed. He held very much the same views that you projected in your post. If I hadn't had that conversation with him, I would be in a bit of doubt about you being a black and hispanic woman and that you could possibly be somebody trying to spin things. Still a possiblity, but I know people like my friend and yourself are out there. In all honesty, my overall view on this subject is I pretty much don't rate to say a damn thing on this subject due to my social status as a white male no matter my level of education on the subject. Which is why this is being done on a forum for me and not in a public, "in person" type setting with trying to communicate with others how I feel. I feel It would be way too audacious, arrogant, and unwarrented given my current status and achievements. If things do change and get better, and we can regard us all as just human beings without any social attachment for what we are by ethnicity or sex, then it's not going to come from white males. I also want to comment on your write off on my own achievements and life. I agree entirely with you. As a person, I have no pride in what I've done and wont have any pride in what I will do less I'm using it to establish something in a conversation. I have pride in my wife and living and loving her and that's about the bulk of it. At the end of the day that is what matters most to me. I think sometimes people don't understand each other, get angry with each other, refuse to accept each other, create biases and hate for one another, all simply because we don't remember what is really important and forget that our lives and views don't really matter all that much in the big picture. What matters is that we continue and progress as human beings, regardless of our selves and our views, and do it in such a way that doesn't hinder us being able to peacably live our own lives. A bit off topic, a bit of a rant, but it's how I feel about things and it's always at the core of anything I say.
So people don't get to point out/contest inequities in the system? After all, there are many who do work hard but also wish to address inequalities. Wait. They don't get to talk about their rights. I'm certain that you are aware that no group that has been mistreated made progress by being silent and while things today are far better than they were, certainly there are some things that could still stand to be improved. The answer is really to be like everyone else? How so? What will that do to correct systemic problems? Who is self segregating and how? No, where you are (or where you're allowed to be) can make a treendous difference. Actually, there is no guarantee of that, as some firms will hire but will not promote (this is how we've had 'glass ceiling' type lawsuits in the first place). I personally know of a couple of examples, but will try to stay away from anecdotes. Who would say that it is? That it isn't as bad as then doesn't justify not dealing with social/political/economic problems now. Whether racism is pervasive or not, if it exists within public systems that are meant to be equally accessible to all, then someone should contest it. These are not examples of the end of racism/sexism or of their erasure from public and private institutions to a degree where it would not affect a woman or ethnic minority negatively. Last time I checked, racism and sexism were real problems--and not totally divorced from problems like genocide, war and famine. Hey, I'd take Veteran's Day off if allowed. Start the petition! We also celebrate Columbus Day, so, by comparison, I don't think it's much to celebrate Dr. King/Civil Rights Era. Dr. King's legacy/the Civil Rights legacy is a national one and not restricted to just black people. Good for you. But do you then determine that those seeking to take advantage of civil rights legislation don't get to challenge problems? paz, dormindo
We still have gay youth committing suicide because of inequalitiy and stuff like that. It is a real problem!! racism sexism and other otracities.
I do think the 'oh poor us white males' crew are being idiots. Did they grow up constantly having to hide their sexuality? No. Did they grow up with girls grabbing their butts, trying to take their clothes off as a 'joke', and being told to stop agitating about nothing when they reported this to the same schools that have a so called anti-bullying policy? Nope. Are they told to constantly modify how they dress, how they get to school and work, so girls won't assault them? No. Do they get harassed by the police for their skin? No. And let's not even get into the even heavier issues. Do they have their own damn bodies under parliamentary scrutiny? Do they have to live in countries where there own damn bodies can be forcibly acted on against their will? *cough* Ireland *cough* X case *cough*
^Agreed. I hate, HATE women who talk about equality then complain that chivalry no longer exists. Agreed on the C word too. It's a word like any other. I don't get why it has this verbal H-bomb status.
Thank you! It's not about tilting a playing field. It's about leveling it. You said it better than me though.
Depending on the demographics of where they live, I could see where there would be pockets of white males who'd be the minority. I think the real issue is that when power and demographics changes creep in, those who are used to a life of living in the majority get put off by it. There are obviously things changing in the amount of power and control white males have access to. And there are probably going to be a lot of traditionally minded white males who don't care for being outnumbered by college educated women of all races. It's not a bad thing to have to learn how to live with others as their equal instead of their superior.
Hey Dormindo, I don’t usually post on here, my account is pretty inactive because I only like to read really. But I can’t just ignore such a thoughtful post stated in such a respectful way. So if I may, I’d like to take a shot at responding to your comments. 1. So people don't get to point out/contest inequities in the system? After all, there are many who do work hard but also wish to address inequalities. - My issue with pointing out and contesting inequities is that the times have changed and moods have altered; the people of American today are not who they were say 150 years ago. Talking about things like how privileged the white man is or how oppressive and unequal the system can be is unproductive. If people talked more about “change” and less about blame this would be a totally different conversation. 2. Wait. They don't get to talk about their rights. I'm certain that you are aware that no group that has been mistreated made progress by being silent and while things today are far better than they were, certainly there are some things that could still stand to be improved. - Everyone has rights that the constitution and the court systems work to protect. Voicing to the world that you have a right everyone else has as well leads to a dead end. As for the rest of the comment, my response to comment #1 is pretty much the same. 3. The answer is really to be like everyone else? How so? What will that do to correct systemic problems? - In my experience, I have found that when you stop trying to be vocal and apparent about how “different” you are and how being such affords you a special privilege; you gain a lot more respect and power for being comfortable in who you are and what you believe in. People praise being “diversity” and being “different,” breaking the mold. No two people are exactly alike. I don’t think I need a plaque that screams “black Hispanic woman” for people to see I’m different. Which I mean at the end of the day I am not because I am not the only one with those labels. 4. Who is self segregating and how? - Everywhere I’ve been, blacks hang out with blacks, hispanics with hispanics, asians with asians, etc. etc. Sure, we all have friends from different backgrounds and cultures, the times have changed, but at the end of the day, we mingle with people just like ourselves. That’s whose self-segregating: everyone. And I find it incredibly telling. It’s why every culture has grossly incorrect stereotypes about other cultures; because they hang out in packs and judge their beliefs on the actions of a few totally unrepresentative of the population as a whole. 5. No, where you are (or where you're allowed to be) can make a treendous difference. - I agree with this entirely. It’s why I said “I prob got all the money as well as the acceptance because of my status” and followed it with the fact that I take advantage of what’s out there for me. I probably should have added that I have clearly benefited from the actions of those who my post is claiming to be annoyed with. I’m not blind to what you or anyone else is saying, I’m just ashamed of the way that it goes on. With all of the education this country has to offer and people still aren’t able to let go of hate and blame. It disgusts me sometimes. That is why I say work hard and do what you gotta do. 6. Actually, there is no guarantee of that, as some firms will hire but will not promote (this is how we've had 'glass ceiling' type lawsuits in the first place). I personally know of a couple of examples, but will try to stay away from anecdotes. - The only thing I can say is that this is not always the case and again, the examples of a few are not even remotely representative of the population as a whole. 7. Who would say that it is? That it isn't as bad as then doesn't justify not dealing with social/political/economic problems now. - All I’m saying is, it’s not as bad as people make it out to be and as soon as we start looking at for what it is, a working living breathing system that grows like any other organic thing in life, and not for what we want it to be things could be much better. 8. Whether racism is pervasive or not, if it exists within public systems that are meant to be equally accessible to all, then someone should contest it. - Honestly, and this is obviously just a personal opinion, I think racism and sexism and every other negative “-ism” out there will always exist. It hasn’t gone away, in spite of all that this great country has achieved, and it won’t. 9. These are not examples of the end of racism/sexism or of their erasure from public and private institutions to a degree where it would not affect a woman or ethnic minority negatively. - Sorry that I came off as trying to use these as example as the end of racism/sexism. As you can see, I don’t believe in that. What I was trying to say by using these examples what that these people have risen above the times. 10. Last time I checked, racism and sexism were real problems--and not totally divorced from problems like genocide, war and famine. - Racism and sexism can clearly be lived with as we live in a racist and sexist world. The ones I listed, however, are killing people every day. Yeah yeah, extreme racists and extreme sexists kill people. Ok. Not even remotely close to the way these other problems do. 11. Hey, I'd take Veteran's Day off if allowed. Start the petition! We also celebrate Columbus Day, so, by comparison, I don't think it's much to celebrate Dr. King/Civil Rights Era. Dr. King's legacy/the Civil Rights legacy is a national one and not restricted to just black people. - It just kills me I have to go to class for every holiday except for king day. It’s dumb. If Im going to be forced to observe something because it was important enough to become a holiday, then I should be allowed to celebrate them all. Equality, right? 12. Good for you. But do you then determine that those seeking to take advantage of civil rights legislation don't get to challenge problems? - I hear what you’re saying but it’s the same as my response to comment #1. Again, thanks for being as thoughtful as you were, Dormindo. Appreciate it.
Been off the grid the last few days and just saw the thread. The reason I said that I didn't have time to waste was because there was no intelligent conversation to be had. When you encounter someone who has nothing but complaints and excuses, who is uninformed, and who would rather blame and exclaim their opinion, instead of taking the time to get an educated one before they start blabbing, it is tedious. If there is nothing to be gained with continued "discussion," it is best to beat feet. Well, you drew fire for being inconsiderate and offensive. Is this usually how you start enquiries or conversations? You clearly haven't learned how to deal with the pressure of being put in your place. I had half a mind to share your thread with some of my minority friends I made in college, any one of them could have ripped your rant to shreds better than I can. Nothing has been projected on you, YOU ARE NOT THE VICTIM. People have responded to your tone and words, nothing more. I have made no assumptions about you, you clearly are clueless, I even refrained from calling you racist but said your comments were borderline rascism instead because I don't know you and was giving you the benefit of the doubt. The best way to go about things, once again for the cheap seats, is to inform yourself before you jump to conclusions and/or share your opinions with the world. Opinions are like, well you know the cliche. Informed educated opinions make for good conversation, ignorant rants will not make the world a better place. Typical ugly American. Having rights without responsibility is never a good thing. You are entitled to your opinions of course, but you do not the right to write the kinds of things you said early in this thread and think that you will not reap the repercussions. One thing I have learned living as a minority for 11 years now in another country is that there is always more than one way of doing things, and the way I grew up doing things isn't always the best way or most appropriate one. In another post you mentioned Haiti and how you went there to help. Do you know much about Haiti(I don't want to assume either way)? How it came into being, why it is such a poor and depraved nation and what role race and our country played in that? See, it is hard to understand others when you know nothing of them or their history. If you do know a bit about Haitian culture/history, then you will understand the point I am making and perhaps it may have had an impact on you when you were there or since. Lastly, I will say that even if you find women and minorities that agree with your opinions, you should be much more careful with the way in which you express yourself because you could cause a lot of problems for yourself if you speak as you first wrote in person.
Please Reality - Very well said, and again I appreciate the time and effort you put into your post in response to anything I have put. I do believe that you are taking things a bit out of context due to a disposition to belive certain things about myself and that your rhetoric shows it. We're not on the same page for why I started this thread, and some things you are telling me I'm complaining about I'm not really complaining about at all. I'm just stating something. All of my posts have been pretty objective emotionally on my side, and some things I say like "offended" or whatnot does not imply that I'm over here huffing and puffing and pouting about how unfairly I'm being treated. It's probably a poor choice of words but from person to person give me a break. My vocab isn't great anymore because I have been learning a whole different skill set that lives in a word of acronyms, vulgar language, and rhetoric many people would never understand unless they spent time around military people. This has been the last four years for me. I'm not complaining, I'm admitting the way I talk probably IS really stupid, and that's why I feel like I'm being misunderstood. It literally IS because I'm unable to express myself in the way I want to, and to put it in a much more blunt term I'm pretty stupid as far as communicating with others right now. You keep telling me I'm not listening or not getting anything from the thread. I want to prove you wrong. Here is what I'm getting . . . . 1.) Learning to communicate with different personalities that I have not been exposed to for years. 2.) I've been pointed in different directions in which I can look to for more information on the subject. 3.) I have gotten to debate with somebody who hates my guts, continue it, and not have the conversation spiral down so considerably into personal insults and my own ignorance that the thread gets closed and this is a VERY touchy subject. 4.) I have further confirmation personally on why I shouldn't comment on situations like this in a public forum. 5.) I'm a bit more educated to the oposition to my orignal statetments and what they would say to me. 6.) Due to 5.), I am not in a better position to look inwards to find out a bit of the problem with myself, be able to relay that to people who agree very much with me on this subject and my opinion and since they'll listen to me, help make them more considerate and possibly shut their mouths when they talk about it. Changing the people around you is about all I can, and every small bit counts. That's just a few things, I could go on probably till' the number 20 but some of it is such a personal thing you would say "WTF weirdo" even more then you are now. I'm not ugly america in every subject of discussion, I am in this one. But this ugly american is learning why he is that way, and this thread is being a great success for me in terms of my personal goals for it. I agree with much of what you have said, understand your opinions (although again, I think you take it a little out of context) and why you come to them, and I've listened. You as a person have helped me learn, if not only but telling me what I shouldn't do. Thankyou. That said, I have nothing left to say on this thread for the time being. Maybe in a few months I'll drag it back up to discuss a book I've read on it if I can find the time, maybe in a year, but I am confident I'll return to it. Thankyou very much for your personal insight (as well as everyone else who has participated in this thread thus far) and it has not been taking lightly.
I started on here as a lurker, too--before the disease set in. The thing is is that I don't know of any people who say that the situation is the same as it was then. I have heard many a strident, 'militant' type concede that things have changed to some degree. What's more, is that people's complaints are typically addressing a current, whose relevance to the past is largely as social legacy and as illustration that what may have once been social and customary has become structural, has been challenged and--to some degree--uprooted in the 50s, 60s, 70s, but still has some structural and social hideouts. I don't see where talk is problematic. Talk is sometimes the preliminary step to becoming active in intitiating policy change (as we all know, sometimes is JUST talk, too--but that's humanity for you). Talk can lead to change and if someone/something is at fault, I see no problem in naming/blaming them. Of course it is meant to go beyond that, too. Honest question: what would you have a person do? I'm not following how voicing that you have rights that others have leads to a dead end, please explain. Also, many times, what people are talking about are rights that they technically have but that are not always recoverable in reality (i.e. glass ceiling in pay for women who have the same education, experience, etc. as their male counterparts). Yet, there are also those who are vocal because they seek rights that they actually do not have at the moment (gay marriage, for example). How would being silent or working hard rectify either of those situations? But people are different in terms of color, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I don't think that in general any who have been vocal about these differences want praise so much as they want these differences not to be penalized. I have a wife, three sisters, two nieces, a mother and, hopefully some day, a daughter and I would want any and all of them to have as much of a chance to do what they want to do in terms of career, to earn as much as any male doing the same job and to not have to face any harassment due to their gender. Now, there are laws that have been in place for some time that are to aid in that, but of course the social culture changes slowly at times--and social culture can drive policy, local actions and attitudes, all of which have their effect on the given group and individual. Is this segregation or social/cultural grouping--people socializing based on who they share much in common with, which can tend to fall along ethnic, religious or gendered lines. Certainly there is no black person who will hang out with just any other person simply because they are black. Not all black people get along and the same applies to any other grouping. Nevertheless people do tend to group like that, even in multiethnic lands. Stereotypes have not grown out of people's tendency to group with like individuals as it has out of groups' desires to lower others' status for fun, profit, nationalism, etc. Just decades ago, many middle and upper class Euro-American homes had African-American, Mexican-American and Asian-American domestics working right in the home and in some cases helping to raise the children. This did not prevent the type of stereotypes common in that era. While familiarity can break down the walls of presupposition, when there is social conditioning based on memes that have become a subconscious part of one's framework for viewing the world, then it can act as an invisible fence that, though invisible, manages to color one's perceptions of people, places, interactions. What is there to be ashamed of? And again, I'll say that I know many ethnic minorities who work hard and still find time to be active in their communities to challenge inequities in the law or the application thereof. It may not always be the case, but in my opinion it shouldn't ever be the case--whether one be white, black or what have you. Also, many incidents are not so rare. The glass ceiling is fairly widespread as a phenomenon, as are sexual harrassment incidents (these are not ubiquitous, of course, but they are also not rarities either). Being vocal, being active is what helps this thing grow into what works best for everyone (theoretically). I don't think the idea that people have is that of ending racism (as an ideology that someone subscribes to in their head) as it is one of ending racist practices (that have a real world effect on people). So complaining, for instance, that a teacher is racist because of some action he/she took against a black student is not about changing the teacher's mind about black people as it is about protecting students who already--and who may in future--be discriminated against from the power that a person who holds such beliefs may have. So, whether or not racism ever goes away, a person should not be stopped by the police simply because he/she is black or brown, and, should such a thing occur, people have the right--and the duty--to be vocal about it and take action against it or it will happen again. Sure, but people have been doing that all along. There were black Representatives in the U.S. Congress right out of the slave era during Reconstruction. These achievements, in my mind, do not preclude a group from pursuing increasing equity--even when some degree of equity has already been gained. nor does it mean that a group has given up the right to be vocal about mistreatment. This a matter of degrees and fails to invalidate the need to challenge racist and sexist practices. By this logic, you should not have any complaint in your life unless it is immediately life threatening. Do you have this problem with taking Thanksgiving day(s) off as well? Also, though you may have no choice in having the day off, you are not forced to observe it. You also get Labor Day, Christmas and New Year's Day off as well. Are these days any less 'dumb' than the King holiday? I think at this point I'd like to hear of some concrete examples of people complaining as though things are as they were 150 years ago, if you're so inclined. Of all the complaints I've personally heard (and I've heard some that were downright silly), I haven't heard anything like that save from some conspiracist types. It's the way I tend to like to have a discussion. Hope to hear back from you. paz, dormindo
This seems somewhat relevant in a way... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OnWnwwxNPA&feature=related"]George Carlin - pride - YouTube[/ame]
Though I love George Carlin and stand firmly with his point in that clip, I'm not sure that it's relevant, in that we're not talking about pride, but rights/inequities and how to go about obtaining rights and correcting inequities. paz, dormindo
Basically how when some people who are disadvantaged initially initially become equal, or as equal as anyone gets, they don't try to become part of the homogenous whole but rather separate themselves with black pride, irish pride, gay pride, etc. and in some cases try to use the fact that they or their ancestors were disadvantaged initially to act like they're better than others. The number of black kids who I've seen act like this is apalling. So your ancestors were enslaved or abused. So what? Some of my ancestors were enslaved and I'm white. Acting like you're special because of your ethnicity, sexual orientation, or the fact that you play xbox are all equally worthless in my books. Being proud because you accomplished something is worthwhile. That's my point.
On a similar note I have issue with labels like African-American or Chinese-Canadian. Unless you have dual citizenship and consistantly live in both places you're either one or the other. You're African, or an American. You're Chinese or you're a Canadian. You can be a Canadian of Chinese birth/origin but in my books when you come to a country, live in that country and are a memeber of that society you take the label of everyone else who is there.
Right or wrong, could the turning towards pride have something to do with the years of social as well as structural denigration that groups like the Irish, Italians, African Americans, Homosexuals and more have suffered? So, sure, some Black kids you know may act high and mighty, and some people feel special because of their ethnicity and/or orientation, but these groups have not had the structural power in this country to not only feel that way but enforce it others through institutions and influence others to that belief through social customs/media/etc. Proud or not, if you're gay and being denied the right to civil union and benefits, you have the right to speak out on it. If you're African-American (or perhaps Mexican-American in Arizona, for example) and being stopped needlessly by the police, then you should be able to address. This issue appeared to be the issue of the OP. paz, dormindo
