I'm suprised none of the other buj guys commented on the Anderson Silva clip matt posted. The clip showed him applying a few of the qualities demonstrated by Hatsumi, but more were missing than present, and the overall approach was entirely different, from my outsider's view. Please note the careful use of the terms "applying" and "demonstrated". The above is not a value judgement. The emotional component cannot be discerned completely from videos, but when I watch Hatsumi doing something good I see technique. If they explain those techniques as "feelings" or vague analogies, I can't help but think that they must either be ignorant of their own subtleties and minutiae of body control, or they don't want those students to know how they do it. I'd bet money on it being the latter, and I'd also bet money that they were told exactly how to do these things. Oh, and for an easy start at discerning a difference between Silva and Hatsumi, look at the way they step sideways. There is a world of difference in effect created by one subtle difference in technique.
I don't think he was talking about a specific technique. More a combination of posture, distance, strategy-in-motion, etc. Basics refined and all that.
Out of the entire history of Judo, there has been something like 18 judans in the entire art. Not everyone who goes for a swim can win an Olympic medal. But, put in the effort and you just may. Kimura and his philosophy of triple effort had the right idea.
Mattt, you seem to be saying that the arts have no value...why do you train in them? Or has your teacher been "tested"?
We are still back to hard work and experience not being the whole picture. What in your opinion besides genetics can you imagine plays a part? Thank you for that bit of trivia. Are you dodging my question? I asked you a few times now about Mifune sensei. With regards to Kimura sensei, I'm sure! Also, his university has a history of producing good fighters.
I like the front kick to the chin KO personally but don't know if bringing up Silva is a good example, unless someone wants to get into the whys of how he got where he did. Training with Freddie Roach seems to be more the icing on the cake. As for Forrest and a lot of his other opponents, they were outclassed. Perhaps this is an aspect of capturing smoke in some people's eyes. I would add that Machida had a bit of this kind of aura when he started taking people out in the UFC too. Or Parisyan for that matter.
I think two (or more) man kata trained properly and repeatedly, slowly at first and building up, builds the base for the "smoke" type movement. It allows refinement of distancing and timing. Then you can test it against unscripted attacks. And train the basics. ALOT. However there is still probably an "ingredient X" as not everyone who trains that way will "get it". This is just my opinion. At this time.
Desire, hard training, and genetics (in that order) are keys to succeeding in any martial art. Aside from the training of the system itself I don't think anything else matters. For becoming like "smoke", it's simply getting a keen mastery of distance, timing, and avoidance.
Not to keep beating around the bush, but do you think such descriptions as found in traditional arts(like jujutsu for example) could be used to describe Midune Sensei? How were his genetics by the way? This thread really isn't about just being good or succeeding in a particular art but about the acquiring of an ability that is uncommon. So are genetics the key then to developing a keen sense of distance and timing? Because clearly desire and hard training are both common traits in the world of martial arts, just as in life itself. However, guys who move like smoke are few and far between.
Top level martial artists are few and far between too. Most people fail to reach that level simply because a failure of one to all three of those aforementioned attributes. If you want to go by the term tai sabaki, that's really where it boils down to.
So taisabaki is the elusive smokemaking machine? Not ashi sabaki(gets more play in ninjutsu than its cousin tai sabaki)? How about maai? Now let's add weapons into the mix. How does one make ones spear into a big ol' smoking joint of defeat for your opponent? Again though, let's concentrate on the smoking few. We aren't here to analyze why people fall short but how they are able to stick to their opponent, become water, and be unfathomable and such.
Since you can't move your body too well if you don't move your feet, obviously they're not separate. Same with maai - if you have no understanding of that how can you understand tai sabaki? We just seem to be beating a dead horse here. I've mentioned my opinion and experience several times. If you want a more mystical answer, you'll be waiting for quite some time. It's a strong grasp of distance, timing, and movement developed through hard training. Plain and simple. And it's prevalent in arts from boxing to Aikido to karate to whatever else you can think of.
Interesting topic Personally I’ve experienced the Japanese shihan doing what PR is describing. I don’t think that I’m self deluded and I’m certainly not a believer in the force. I’ve witnessed them performing at this sort of level vs all sorts of people including unscripted attacks from people with BJJ & MMA backgrounds I would say that, in my view, they are fallible and probably still working on developing this level of skill. There are of course times when, under pressure, they fall back on more physical / structural techniques I don’t think that this is unique to the buj and it seems to me that this sort of thing is demonstrated by world class martial artists playing with people who have materially less skill than them. I think that this skill gap is important To Kuma’s point I think the foundation is good mechanical stuff like distance, timing and flow/regulation trained over many years in a variety of situations However, I feel that, in the buj at least, there’s more to it than just that. Psychology, deception and managing the whole situation play an important role I think. The shihan can generate a confused state (more than just mentally) in their opponents which creates the space/opportunity to move freely for example It’s not mystical, although often the way of communicating the concepts seem that way for a variety of reasons. Actually many of the principles at play are described pretty rationally in Musashi’s writings for example How to train it? Dunno for sure as I can’t do it. The best advice that I’ve had is to experience these things 1st hand, train with specific goals in mind and keep hoping/trying to achieve these things as you train Personally I take the following approach to trying to crack any training level/concept etc: 1 – Observe & experience the concept in action from a world class martial artist 2 – Get a concept down in the simplest sterile environment – typically training kihon/basics 3 – Apply the concept in more complex/variable situations – typically more complex techniques, variations in attack & upping the intensity 4 – Get it to work in buj randori 5 – Get it to work vs non-buj attacks in randori I hope this approach will continue to have benefits as the principles become more advanced
I think most of that comes into play with those same attributes though. If those skills are solid, drawing an opponent to attack you in the way most beneficial to you is an effective strategy. Many of us have probably trained with the guy who was "wide open" yet when we attacked it always seemed like we missed and they had the perfect counter right there. If you control the distance and the timing, you control the fight in most cases so that applies as well.
99% of the bad videos thread comes from the same material you are studying and claiming to be bad. The difference between Takamatsu and those folk would be in the 5 points I mentioned earlier. I have never said that the arts are useless, but there are plenty of people training them in a useless manner, and it is a sliding scale. Personally I think to reach the very highest level you must be in a crucible where your skills are honed and tested to the limit - that is not going to be in your local social club/church hall twice a month, it is going to be training daily and going against people who are not trapped in Tori/Uke mindsets or of the same art. If you can make it work consistently against people that have training and bad intentions then you are getting somewhere.
I would say, taking the state of mind/attitude out of the equation would be a mistake. You can be very good on a technical level, have good timing and movement, and yet not achieve what we are talking about here.
No. They come from people not able to demonstrate those arts well. They could probably choose any art and fluff it up just as efficiently.
The material is the same, the teachers and training methodologies are different. My point is, if you don't train properly, you can have all the material in the world and suck. If you have the right teachers but don't care about the training you can still suck. If you have the wrong teachers and care like crazy about the training you can still suck. If you have the right teachers AND train hard but don't ever step outside of your training group you can still suck (whilst being very awesome inside the bubble). You never can tell until you take it outside into the real world, and I believe in the process of this you will not only answer questions, but hone what you have learnt.
