Capture smoke

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

  2. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Okay, my thoughts.

  3. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Agreed. But like you say, you have to have access to somebody to steal from.

    (Though I suppose somebody could stumble across it by...accident.)

    Doubly agreed. This is something important. A spooky feeling.

    There was a thread about sword sometime ago where soke cut into Someya sensei's attack...
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2012
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I took "ingrained ability" as the same as "perseverance". You train until you "get it". Then you train s'more.

    Martial arts surely can be handed down. It depends on the ability and willingness of the instructor, and I guess the completeness of the conceptual system of the art. Some things that high-level practitioners do can seem like magic, but it isn't. It can be codified and explained in explicit terms, and body control allowing, replicated.

    I get your floor remark, but a basic example of what I'm on about is being able to strike hard enough to damage someone whilst falling, with no floor contact. This would be an intermediate manifestation of some of these body skills IMO.

    The whole moment of intention stuff I don't quite buy. Most people give off so many telegraphs; micro-expressions, weight shift etc. etc., it can get very subtle, but it's still physical. And it is possible to spot these before a person has registered it consciously, which can appear like mind-reading, but really it's body-reading.

    Finally, do you sense something and move, or do you move and then sense something? Or
    does it happen simultaneously?
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  5. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Sensing intention from behind, as in the Godan test, is different. When done properly, there are no clues to pick up on as per your description. When I passed, my teacher said he thought he'd hit me.
  6. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Did you tell him he didn't?
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I've never done the godan test, but I've reacted to attacks from the rear, and other bits and pieces when I couldn't see attacks coming for whatever reason, without being consciously aware of any sensory stimuli to elicit the appropriate response.

    Of course, I can't say what occurred, as it was outside of my conscious mind. I try not to second guess neuroscience.

    Maybe you don't feel this is the same principle? The effect appears similar.

    So now we've got most of the physical stuff out of the way, do you believe these smokey guys can do magic? I wouldn't like to say, as I've never been uke to one.

    Have we got to the point where we have to ask who instigates the roll? Can these smokey guys make you stick to them, rather than the vice versa it would appear?
  8. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    People think they've hit people in every art. all the time. Doesn't mean they have ESP, it just means the reciever moved after the attacker has mentally committed to the movement. Don't you think it's possible that someone could telegraph and still be surprised they didn't make contact?
  9. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics


    If you can stick to somebody's arm, it also means they are sticking to you. Not voluntarily but stuck nonetheless.
  10. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Who has ESP? Nobody is suggesting anyone has it. It wasn't a telegraph in the normal sense like watching a puncher winding up. Some people scrunch their face up and pull back when they give the test. Others strike without any of that.
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ok, I think this has run its course, for me at least.

    Thanks for an interesting thread Please reality! :)

    Oh, and don't underestimate the power of charlatans, having the skill and cunning to do one thing, whilst appearing to do another, sounds decidedly smokey to me!
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Never trust a magician. While many things my teacher, his peers, and his teacher can do may seem magical; they will be the first to dispel that nonsense.
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Don't discount the skill set of an effective charlatan, or any strategies that may be employed with them.

    I wouldn't have thought I'd have to tell a ninja that! :)
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    So some will complain that ninjutsu is too esoteric and martial arts should be easy to understand and explained in a logical way. Yet the higher techniques and principles found in the arts that make up the Takamatsuden, though simple, are quite difficult to explain and have to be experienced and practiced repeatedly to become useable. This is the difference between grabbing and relying on holding and catching(hooking), or sacrificing speed to beat the opponent to the punch. It's an ability to let go and stop relying on conventional understanding and skills developed, and learn to let the will and doing something to the opponent go and begin to learn how to let them do to themselves what we would have accomplished.

    There are certainly other martial arts out there that have similar ideas and practices, but there are also those arts and martial artists who will hear such principles and be convinced that it's a bunch of malarky and mumbo jumbo.
  15. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    It is mumbo jumbo, malarky, and a host of worse names. If you can't use it in a fight, or in any pressure testing environment whatsoever, then it is no more than fantasy and is no use to anyone, except a very gentle form of exercise. If you can prove it, and use it consistently in a pressure environment then it's awesome and I want to try it too! :)
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Sorry, you are contradicting yourself. I think you mean this....

    Can you stick to someone's limbs with your own?

    Can you hit faster than reaction?

    Can you go faster by slowing down?

    Who said it couldn't be used in a fight or other live situation?
  17. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Chadderz, in this instance I agree with PR.

    Martial arts at its highest level is incredibly subtle and I've seen it with some Tai Chi exponents.

    Earlier this week I went back to visit my JKD instructor. In his class were some cage fighters. Big, tough and skilled, but when he was teaching Jun Fan Gung Fu they just couldn't get it.

    The basic, but subtle movements that Bruce Lee had were beyond them.

    That's not to say these guys couldn't pull you to bits, as they all looked like they could, but this isn't what was meant by PR's post.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    This was the kind of movement I was referring to in the OP. Simple, direct, effective, but elusive. To watch a master move like a ballerina but be able to crush like a tiger. Whether doing kata or exploring ideas proffered by students and refining them into more applicable moves for fighting, it is easy to see whether a teacher has gotten these ryu.

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