[Capoeira] Effective it is!!!

With the inclusion of so many inquiries with regards to effectiveness, it leads me to ask this question......

....How many of you naysayers actually train Capoeira with defense in mind?

I've been involved in Capoeira for quite awhile, and I see a difference in priorities among people who train. Some have a penchant for the musical..............some for the dance................and others for the fight. I fail to understand how anybody can say that Capoeira is any less effective than other striking arts when our basic methods of attack...(...i.e...the meat & potatoes) are no different than most other striking arts. We have punches, breaks, kicks, knees, elbows, takedowns, etc. What is so ineffective about that? Does the root of the problem lie within the fact that many of you naysayers view Capoeira from a slant? Does the problem lie within the fact that you can't look past the acrobatics inherent in Contemporary Capoeira, and focus your attention on the attack/defense portion of the art? Do you not see the effectiveness in the added mobility of a trained Capoeirista? Enlighten me here! Like you, I've seen my fair share of people who couldn't defend with their Capoeira if their life depended on it. I could say the same about the practitioners of other arts. On the flipside, I've seen many rugged Capoeirista's distribute ass whoopings like Mormon's and Jehovah's Witnesses distribute religious booklets. It really depends on how you train. It's as simple as that.

 

Hi LoneBencao. I don't train in Capoeira so therefore cannot comment too much on its effectiveness. What I will say though is that it is no more or no less effective than any other art as it is the practicioner who will take from it what they want as you said.

What seems to happen these days as martial arts become more popular and user friendly is that only the stuff that looks good seems to get the attention. Therefore maybe insinuating that that is all there is to the art but people should be more respectful of other arts and realise that all martial arts are effective and that it is how you train rather than what you train in.

 

I have recently started training in capoeira besides my MMA classes because i love the things it has to offer (the music, the atmosphere, the acrobatics...)
Till recently i believed that Capoeira wouldn't be all that effective, but that was before our Batizado this weekend...On friday our Batizado kicked off with a big roda. At one moment 2 mestres were playing a very hard game...so hard that it ended in a real fight which had to be broken up. The game they were playing and the real fighting impressed me so much that i will never question the effectiveness of capoeira ever again. I also agree on what has been said before, that is the person who makes his chosen MA style work for him.
Axé

 

I think it's because most of the attacks capoeira uses leave big openings, and the techniques used often don't strike at the most obvious vulnerability.


I'm confused about the techniques you listed, are those for fighting or capoeira games? For example: punching in the wrong roda will literally get you killed, I don't think we want to be spreading the idea that that's an acceptable game technique.

 

I'm not talking about the jogo de Capoeira, I'm talking about the luta. Big difference! And if you're leaving yourself open to attack/having targeting issues, that's a personal flaw, not an inherent flaw of the movement itself. What movements you use depends heavily on the roda you're in.

 

Ah, well I think you just hit the answer, they don't realize there's a difference! It is a little different with capoeira having such a pronounced game form. I can understand the confusion.

Hmm... Actually I think the moves themselves do tend to be more open, and I don't think it's a flaw at all. But maybe that's another thread.

 

How proficient are you at Capoeira? You can't say that everybody who does a particular movement is open. It's definitely an individual flaw, but yes, we'll leave that topic for another thread.

 

At the risk of opening up another bitter can of worms, I'll jump in and comment. I think the common perception of capoeira's lack of effectiveness stems from, in my opinion, dubious training methods. Techniques in and of themselves are not what makes the art effective. It's the method of training. Plenty of arts feature elbows, punches, etc, but what separates the arts is the method of training. It is whats separated the Kodokan from other koryus. It is what separates Kyokushin from many karate schools. It is why boxers know how to throw a punch as opposed to other arts. It is why Thai boxers, wrestlers, and judoka do so well in the clinch.

I don't dismiss the roda as serving a purpose for the art, but I dismiss it as a substitute for sparring. When people fight, you know they are fighting. There is no question as to what is going on when boxers box or bjjers grapple, even if the latter appears boring to some. I've read something here to the effect of beauty in the roda and ugly in the street. Why have two different sets of criteria if the art is essentially a combat art? Why isnt it ugly in the roda, if that is what it will be in the street?

 

It's just the nature of the art. The mindsets, the malicia, etc......it's part of the tradition. Capoeira isn't just a fighting art, it is a lifestyle..........it is a culture......etc. I cannot say the same about other arts. It's a multi-faceted art, and that's what makes it so damn beautiful. Ugly rodas do exist, but you will rarely see any videos showcasing such ugliness. A roda can turn ugly at the snap of a finger, especially in Brasil. As I stated in my initial post, it is all about how an individual trains, so the flaw is characteristic of the individual, not the art itself.

 

I agree that if taught correctly capoeira can be a very practical form of selfdefence.
A friend of mine who has practised kung fu for many years got into a fight with a capoeira student not that long ago, the capoeira student kept going on and on how capoeira was so much better at fighting than any other art be it kung fu, karate, thai boxing etc.
So they decided to have a fight, as soon as the fight started to my friends shock the capoeira student went straight into a handstand(with his chest towards my friend), without any hesitation my friend front kicked him 30 feet across the room.
The only thing this showed was that this capoeira student fell into the mistake of being more interested in fancy techniques than practical ones and payed the price.
I'm sure many practioners here wouldn't fall into that mistake

 

Now, that is just plain dumb to just keep standing there :bang: . But like i posted earlier, i for one, no longer doubt the effectiveness of capoeira.
There may not be real contact sparring in a normal roda, but i'm pretty sure that if you learn how to control your kicks and punches during a game so you won't hit the other and you are able to do these things without much thought that you have a hell of a lot control and that you can just as easily adapt your game to make your kicks, punches...hit home.Besides, the more acrobatic movements really develop your upper body strength, the ginga alone helps develop leg power, stamina, a sense of balance...I see a lot of things in capoeira that can be really put to good use...To put it in Bruce Lee's words: take what is useful, discard the rest (to make it effective...but i love every aspect of capoeira and i'm pretty sure that when someone would hear me sing that they would think twice about attacking me )

 

Just a little vid that shows some light contact games, as well as floreio games.......

....http://www.style2ouf.com/english/videos/telecharger.php?ID_VIDEO=197

 

We might just as well ask why boxers have a ref, or why BJJ is done on a mat.

All martial arts have different substitutions for combat, they're all designed for different situations and as such, some look different from others. Capoeria and boxing are built for totally different types of combat. If you put a capoeirista in a boxing ring, well.. the boxer might lose, but i wouldn't bet on it. The roda is designed (among other things) to train people in awareness and to be to adapt to a non-violent situation that quickly turns violent. Sparring doesn't do that, and likewise is no substitute for a roda.

The question is not whether capoeira is effective, the question is: "What is this art effective at?" Capoeira is built for staying alive in a dangerous urban environment, the emphasis is on awareness, avoiding getting jumped, delivering quick debilitating attacks and getting the hell outa there. It's the art that was needed by people in the streets of brazil over the past 100+ years.

 

Although we've had our differences in the past (..with regards to viewpoint), I couldn't have said it any better myself. I agree with your assessment.......100%!

 

Indeed, that's quite foolish. Especially when the standard capoeira technique for that situation is so obvious and well known. You say "ok, but i have a sore knee, let's fight wednesday at 3:00." Then you ambush him from behind with a baseball bat on tuesday at 2:00.

Ed: Really that story is depressing.. a handstand!? that's so un-creative.

 

I agree. He used it for the wrong purpose entirely. Depending on the roda, he might have met the same fate. That goes without saying!

 

Well he did draw an attack with it.. If he was good he woudl have known that the person would have attacked him head-on, and have been prepared to counter-attack. He could have a won a game with that move!

Of course maybe he's gonna do the baseball bat thing later, he's just buying his time.

 

i think peoples perception of a 'good capoeira' game are different depending on the point of view. Most people outside capoeira think that lots of flips is a good capoeira game, the people at my class clap when people do a 'showy' move but they go crazy and cheer when someone gets taken down.

Plus my perception of an 'ugly' game has changed since i started it. I can now recognise the more subtle aspects of capoeira and im not awed as much by flips etc.

So to answer the question, why dont some roda look ugly...they do its just they dont get spread around the internet or put on christina aguilera videos and they tend to be appreciated by capoeiristas.

side note: about the basics of capoeira being the same as any other MA, i disagree. Capoeira kicks are very different to other MA kicks.

one more thing: i once sparred with someone from a different MA. it was a capoeira vs. [MA]. So as it started i went over and shook his hand with my right hand. I did an aubatido (kinda pulled him off balance first) into the side of his head and then did a take down. Not conclusive, but funny. he wanted a rematch.

 

I agree with 95% of what you said Kosh. The only thing that I will debate with you about is the inclusion of certain kicks. Capoeira has kicks borrowed from Western arts. Capoeira didn't always have the martelo, chapa, etc. Those are kicks that were later added by Bimba to compete with the other arts that were making their presence known throughout Brasil. The Meia lua, martelo do chao, etc. are examples of kicks that are "Capoeira only", but not every kick in a Capoeirista's arsenal originated with Capoeira. It is for this reason that I laugh when people say that Capoeira's movement base is ineffective, especially since many of the kicks are the same. The main difference is that we "push" with many of our kicks instead of "snap"............with the exception of ponteira.