Can you spot the fake koryu?

Discussion in 'Koryu Bujutsu' started by iB1337, Sep 6, 2009.

  1. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    But lets put things into perspective. Meik Skoss for years let the representative of Kazearashi ryu demonstrate with his dojo for the first of the year demonstration that he hosted. It later turned out that not only was Kazearashi ryu NOT a koryu, but a school created outside of Japan with all of the senior students in on the BS.

    Not so long ago, Wayne Muromoto commented on the Ogawa ryu and stated that he at first thought all the mistake he saw were due to the fact that they were being done by gaijin and not Japanese. It was not until the dealt with the still rather unknown matter of the tea ceremony that he was able to tell that the Ogawa folks were making things up based on things they could get off of the internet and not personal instruction.

    20 years ago it was much easier to spot fakes. Now with so many folks posting things to youtube, it has gotten a lot harder unless you have lived in the country, learned the language and gone to lessons to tell what is real and what is not. So for the average fork to understand is beyond the realms of reason IMO.
  2. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Oh god yeah - Kazearashi Ryu.

    I know someone near to where I live who studies and teaches this system and although I've spoken to him and he is aware of the controversay about this system he continues with it.

    Fair play to him I suppose but, I do roll my eyes when I see material advertising it as a "Samurai Battlefield Art"
  3. KeitaroSugiyama

    KeitaroSugiyama New Member

    Hello gentlemen:)!

    My name is Keitaro Sugiyama. I am a junior instructor of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu Hyouhou (3rd Dan). I am also the Manager of the public relations division of Sougoubudou Genshinkai, the sole legitimate organization of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu Hyouhou, Japan.

    I heard there is an interesting discussion about our style going on here, and yes it is, lol. Especially, I like this one so much!

    Wow, that's new to me! How did you find such our tooooooop secret, which even none of us has ever heard of !!!! lol! ;)

    Thanks! Here's the link for the English page;

    And more movies of our style, too! If you like!

    Joking aside, I think this is a very good lesson and opportunity for us how to introduce out style in a proper fashion and internationally. So I welcome any question and try to answer as possible as I can.

    Because neither of us is a professional modern budo-ka, lol, who can make money from teaching martial arts and has a plenty of time to sit in front of PC screen, but strive hard for our families, in addition, because of language barrier, too, it will take time to make replys but forgive it, please. ;)
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2009
  4. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    The entry in the Bugei ryuha daijiten says something else.
  5. KeitaroSugiyama

    KeitaroSugiyama New Member

    Yes, it does, Mr.iB1337. What part of which edition are you interested in??

    For people who don't know "The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten", it is a very unique and interesting book which gives explanations about enormous numbers of classical martial art styles in Japan. There are first(1969) and second(1978) editions published so far.

  6. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    The 1978 edition, only lists 14 generations, yet according to your outline page you have 29 generations.

    Also, there has been some sort of change for the kanji, from 天真 to 天眞.

    Perhaps, you could explain some of these things?
    I'm willing to say that I might have been wrong, actually I hope I am.
    I'll take a better look at the book tomorrow,and translate the entry for everyone.
  7. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    I can't speak for the lineal discrepencies shown between the BRDJ and the webpage.

    I can however comment on the kanji usage.

    There is no difference between 眞 and 真. The former is an older way of writing "shin/makoto" and the latter is the more common way of writing it. You can find this with the names of certain koryu in books from the Meiji, Taisho & early Showa eras. For example, Tenjin Shinyo-ryu is currently written as 天神真楊流, but in two Meiji-jidai books on the ryu, it is written as 天神眞楊流. Certain densho from the ryu have the older written versions of the name

    This occurance can also be found with Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, where some of the Taisho & Showa jidai books write the name as 天眞正傳香取神道流 (Note, the use of 傳 instead of 伝 - Again, older kanji with the same meaning.) whereas the more modern writing of the ryu is now 天真正伝香取神道流.

    It's merely older versions of the kanji used, nothing more.
  8. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    I meant the reason they decided to use the older Kanji, it also helps make things look older as well.
  9. ronbeaubien

    ronbeaubien Valued Member

    The demonstrations that you are referring to were hosted by by Bob Wolfe at his Itten Dojo. It was also my understanding that the Kaze Arashi-ryu people were invited by Mr. Wolfe.

    Knowing Meik, I do not believe for a second that at any time Meik was ever confused about the illegitimacy of Kaze Arashi-ryu as you have implied.

    Moreover, just because Meik participated in a demonstration where some shady characters have also demonstrated should not be construed to automatically mean that Meik Skoss endorsed the other group as legitimate.


    Ron Beaubien
  10. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Ah, I see. I thought that because they were associating with the Kaze Arashi ryu and had taken photos of the demonstrations along with other koryu for the web site, that they just did not put in enough time to figure out if it was legit or not.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2009
  11. KeitaroSugiyama

    KeitaroSugiyama New Member

    Hello thread readers, it's been a nice clear autumn sky in Japan. :)

    Do you mean this lineage chart of page 600 of the 1978 edition?

    Yes, is there any problem? It's sure that the authors omits the names of the several successors before Setoguchi-Bizennokami-Masamoto, the 15th successor of the school. I don't know why the authors of the book did that. They have their own idea and we have our own, that's it.

    There are more other confusing or problematic descriptions in this book, too, regarding the lineage chart of our style. For example, the entry in page 343 shows another lineage chart about our style but it doesn't make sense, at all.

    There are too many wrong and unique ( funny) recognitions on this entry to mention here but, the easy one is that it says Master Ueno-Yasuyuki-Genshin(上野靖之源心), the 27th successor of our style is the 20th successor. In addition, the authors of the book shows the name of Master Ueno-Yasuyuki-Genshin in wrong order, :S

    There is another wrong entry in page 194, too.

    Here the book says Master Ueno-Yasuyuki-Genshin(上野靖之源心)is the successor of Kananha-Shourinji-Kenpo (河南派少林寺拳法) in Japan, which is the name of a Chinese martial arts. But actually the successor of the art is his son, Ueno-Fumiyasu-Genki, our proud 28th successor of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu.

    So we don't value this book at all. There are too many wrong entries on wrong recognitions and information even regarding our style so the same will be about other styles, too.

    As you see in the photo of this book, it's a very thick and big book which has countless entries. It is impossible to expect it to be correct about all entries and aspects. The authors admit it in the afterword, too.

    Because of its cool appearance and countless entries, there are martial art geeks who like to value it and quote from it in Japan, too. I understand it's very fun, as kinda boy's talk, like my cousin who liked to argue with me about which POKEMON is the strongest and the most powerful, when he was 8 years old.


    The problem is that, POKEMONs are imaginative creations and nobody will be hurt even whatever you say about it. But martial arts are of real. There are many real and living people who actually are involved.

    By the way, ersonally I rather like to spend more time for sword practice than making a reply in this unique sequence of discussion. But we are kinda bored of being spot in relation to the annoying descriptions of the book, Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. And also we don't want our young students to be bothered by mindless comments by the results of careless people's internet search in future, as well.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2009
  12. KeitaroSugiyama

    KeitaroSugiyama New Member

    Actually, we want to know how to "prove" the legitimateness(?) of a martial art style, as long as I think, it's impossible. You can't rely on any written documents because as you see, it's easily forged. You can buy many variety of old scrolls of old martial art styles, like teacher's licenses, lineage charts, and "secrets" in internet auction at cheap prices easily.

    Our head master says that he keeps all the scrolls which from the old successors. According to him, the successors of Teshinsho Jigen Ryu have been very dedicated people. They had kept and inherited the records about countless battles and techniques, political and military gossips at that ages. He says it's in bank box but there's no way to "prove" it.

    Could some sort of unique techniques prove the "legitimateness"?? There are many interesting fighting techniques which were developed and invented from countless old real battles in our style. The oldest one is from the days when Japanese people still used straight swords for fighting ( about 1000 years ago), not curved ones like we are familiar with as Japanese swords now. It is called as "Ten-Chi-Jin-Sandan-No-Houkei" (天地人三段の法形), which means "The three forms of heaven, earth, and the human beings". The master says it represents the very essence of sword fighting and he can explain how it works actually, from the standpoint of of mechanics. You can see the movie in our demo in 2008.


    The form performed by two teachers in black kimonos and grey hakamas in the very beginning segment of the clip is it. But unless you have sufficient knowledge of sword fighiting, you have no idea about what they are doing and how they work, but they look just nonsense. Some may say "it's just a symbolic and spiritual movent", which is not.

    There are several sword techniques to defeat Okinawan unique weapons like sai, tonfa, and so on, are also left. When Satsuma, the name of the clan which Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu swords men served for, invaded Okinawa in 18th century, they had very hard time in the battle against Okinawan local fighters who took advantages of those variety of unique weapons. Finally Satsuma succeeded to conquer Okinawa, but Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu people kept studying about those Okinawan local martial arts. My master says that it is recorded in one of the scrolls that some of them even let their daughters married to local martial art successors to disclose the secrets of their arts.

    If you are interested in them, come to our dojo. We are happy to share that information. However, even doing that, we know it contributes little to "prove" the legitimateness of the lineage because, if you don't like what we claim, that's it, lol. And that's OK. We respect other people have different idea.

    Change..? We haven't made any changes in the kanji description of our style because there was no kanji letter "真" in the past when our style was named. We have kept using 眞 so far. But as you see, some articles sometimes use 真, the new and simplified version of 眞 when they refer to our style. I appreciate your good explanation, Mr. Kogusoku.

    I appreciate so much for those people who have read my terrible English writing so far! In return(?), I would like to introduce our latest movie clips from last Sunday, September 13th, 2009. I hope you enjoy them! ;)

    Our proud teachers;

    Our proud students;


    Keitaro Sugiyama ;)
  13. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    Sugiyama sensei, thank you for your post, and this august has been beautiful today was such a clear day.

    Your explanation is much appreciated.
    I've obviously made a huge mistake by saying that your art was fake. If you or Ueno sensei has documents backing his schools history then I accept the fact it is koryu.

    I also like your videos :).
  14. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    [ame=""]YouTube - Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu Students[/ame]

    Is it typical to use shinken while doing demonstrations and training?
  15. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Define "typical".

    I have seen people do tameshigiri and then do kata with others using the same sword at the Meiji shrine enbu on November 3rd. I myself have ducked shuriken just before they flew over my head to land in a target at demonstrations at the Ayase Budokan. I even have an article about it in which the author posts a picture of me and exclaims shock over how real the whole thing was and how close to reality we were.

    My wife saw the same thing and declared I was an idiot.

    I have no idea how the train in the dojo, but this youtube video does not surprise me as a demo in public.
  16. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    I was asking about Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu training only.
  17. KeitaroSugiyama

    KeitaroSugiyama New Member

    Dear Mr.iB1337,

    Thank you for your reply.

    Well, I'm interested in how can we do that. What kind of documents do you want to check? I would like to hear more detailed and concrete idea or procedure. Could you show us any good example for a school to claim its legitimacy in proper way?

    Depending on your skill and preference though, most people who have trained more than 2 or 3 years in our school prefer to use shinken ( live blade ) for demo and training.

    I have a question to you now, Mr.iB1337. Are you a practitioner of any martial art in reality or just a fan, who doesn't practice but likes to collect information and knowledge about it?

    You are very luckiy, lol. I have heard from my master that he saw a 8th dan Iaido master loosed a live blade in his demo. The mekugi ( a tiny pin to hold a blade of Japanese sword with its handle part ) had been broken and the Iaido master didn't checked it before his demo so the blade flew away when he swung his sword. Fortunately there was no people who got injured but the Iaido master apologized to everybody, kneeling down and bowing until his forehead touched the floor, after stunned-looking for a while.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2009
  18. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    Dear Sugiyama sensei,

    I actually train in kenjutsu near Omiya.

    I don't need to see any documents, I'll take your word for it. I meant since the bugei ryuha daijiten was incorrect and that Ueno sensei has Tenshinsho Jigen ryu documents that show that the Bugei ryuha daijiten was wrong, I accept that Tenshinsho Jigen ryu is koryu as you say.

    I made a mistake, I don't need to see any documents.

    Good luck, I hope more people join your training.
  19. KeitaroSugiyama

    KeitaroSugiyama New Member

    Dear Mr. iB1337,

    Thank you for your message but what I want to know is more general advice or help to improve the way we promote ourselves. I know my English is not good and maybe causing confusion because of that. I apologize about it to all the readers of this discussion.

    However, I really would like to hear any suggestion to improve the way we promote our legitimacy in more proper way. So I really apologize to ask the same question again but, could you show us any good example for a school to claim its legitimacy in proper way, generally speaking?

    Do you mean Omiya in Saitama, Japan? That's really nice because I think the towns around Omiya are as convenient as those of central Tokyo but not as crowded and dirty. What are the names of the dojo you go to and the style you are learning now?
  20. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    I live in Iwatsuki near Omiya and Kasukabe on the Noda Line. I do like my area better than Tokyo.

    I rather not mention the dojo I study at on THIS forum, sorry. ( I couldn't discuss my art in either case anyway). I can give a hint. I study a school that stems from the first generation menkyo kaiden holders of Shinkage ryu.

    For legitimacy it is difficult to prove anything in Japanese history without some doubts. People during the Edo era began keeping family trees and sometimes they wrote in things to make themselves look better or they made several honest mistakes.

    So even if you have old documents they could be wrong just like certain family trees. In Koryu this has happened a lot as well so certainty dealing with history in Japan is difficult.

    But, to offer a good reason to believe a lineage is anyone's best bet for proof, due to the nature of written records in Japan during the Edo era.

    The ultimate way to prove a lineage is to have writings from past masters in a collection that has been past down through one school. For example, past masters thoughts on the martial art, or sayings, additions to the ryu-ha, a densho of sorts with the list of names and stamps next to them proving transmission from one generation to the next.

    If people have these documents then the rest of their history becomes more believable, without them then there is always a certain kind of doubt. But, honestly there is no real way to prove anything without doubt even with the records. It comes down to believability.

Share This Page