Can some people be gifted...

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Orangeseger, Oct 9, 2007.

  1. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Which shows, imo, that you don't fully understand Qigong, or have a clouded view.
     
  2. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Hi jkz, I don't take it personally, it is a good question which I will try to answer!

    My definition of psychic vampirism is a silent (and until you can recognise it) unobtrusive hooking into someone's energy (Qi) and syphoning some off.
    Usually it is done unintentionally and leaves the 'victim' tired and drained. This happens at any time and isn't confined to the practice of MA. It can happen when you are shopping or at the cinema..any place where there are other people.

    This to me is different from 'out psyching' an opponant to gain an advantage, which usually involves blatant signals and is knowingly done, only in 'combat' situations.

    I know a bit of your views on Qi so don't ever expect us to agree. :D However, it is a healthy thing to have firmly held views questioned by others. I find I always give thought to my current beliefs, as opposed to trot out what I presume to still be my opinion. So thanks for getting my grey matter in motion! :cool:
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2007
  3. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Thanks for your reply Carys.

    I'd like to ask you a couple of questions, if I may.

    Firstly, I remember reading an article on qigong psychotic reaction one time (I'm unable to find the source right now, but maybe you can give me your view anyway) and one of the examples cited mentioned a woman who became hysterical in a qigong class when she felt her qi sensations cease - she became enraged and accused a fellow student stood near her of stealing her qi. Regardless of the validity of this specific case, you do think this phenomenon is quite possible?

    Secondly, could you tell me if or how your views differ with the following text:

     
  4. Julie (MTA)

    Julie (MTA) Banned Banned

    Carys - I haven't seen anything nor read anything (especially here on MAP) to dissuade me from this view.
     
  5. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Personally, i think it's crazy - in my view - to think that anyone can "steal your energy." Lol. "Psychic vampyrism" - not sure on that spelling, ha ha, is a fancy way of saying someone just negs you out, drains you with their BS, breaks your spirit, gets on your back, whatever - we hold the responsibility for our own attitudes - so if we shrugged off those people, we'd find they weren't vampires at all.

    Second, my teacher was from China, a very succesful and senior level martial artists across the board - san shou, wushu, yiquan, Chen taiji, Shaolin - and I asked him very early on about qi gong powers and he didn't understand. He said "Do you mean breathing exerciese?" Because to him, and most serious martial artists from China, qi gong just means breathing exercises - about as mystical as deep breathing. He was very surprised that we thought "qi gong" was some kind of mystical ability giving practice.


    As for vampires, demons and all that, it's easy to dismiss other people's world view - I guess that's why we do it - but the mind works with images and avatars, so if that works for you in some way it doesn't bother me - just as some people use the image of "god" to help them communicate with aspects of their life that are otherwise without any means of putting in to words.

    Where we have to be careful is where these things start becoming control mechanisms, rather than just systems for empowering people. And that happens just as easily, and just as regularly, in systems that teach about "God" as systems that teach about "Demons."
     
  6. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    But are you really looking??? :Alien:
     
  7. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Of course it's possible that that woman could freak out, lol - it's called being an idiot.
     
  8. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I'll re-phrase my question more carefully,

    Regardless of the validity of this specific case, you do think it is possible that the woman's fellow student could really "steal her qi" during qigong practice?
     
  9. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    No.

    Funny thing there is that if you answer "no" that still lends credibility to the idea of qi - interesting example of how language use causes unintended consequences - like, now it could be assumed that I believe her qi gong was qi-ing her up, but that it couldn't be stolen, ha ha.

    Thing is, get one nut case on a class - your class, my class - if I had one any more - and they go nuts, not because of what you're doing, but because they are nuts - then they report it, it gets on thenet - then your class made them nuts!

    In the information age we should be very careful, and get more savvy about how we interpret data. Just continually pushing this agenda of qi gong causing psychosis is itself lending credibility to qi gong. What we should be doingis just dismissing it as meanigless, or at best deep breathing exercises for relaxation and body movement probably based on memory of shi li internal isometric training.
     
  10. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I don't think it does, any more than discrediting belief in magic gives validity to magic or discrediting belief in ghosts gives credibility to ghosts. What cannot be denied in all of these cases is that people are experiencing something, but what the source of that something is, and the explanation you accept for the phenomenon is open to debate and discussion.
     
  11. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    Well, see, i say, in my martial arts work, that qi gong is at best meaningless breathing exercises. I parctice Yiquan so I do a lot of zhan zhuang and shi li, but the idea that that is "qi gong" to me is ridiculous - it's a completely physical, isometric training method based entirely muscular and nervous system training, as much as weight training or running - nothing mystical at all. Never the less, I get a lot of interesting feelings - and I can also use a lot of visualisation to heighten feelings - such as imagining I'm in water, or splitting a tree. That works very effectively to communicate information to my body, to generate superior physical response.

    Now to me, there's nothing "mystical" about that at all, and it doesn't affect me psychologically except in a sports science way of focus, learning to limit thought and allow my body to think when fighting etc.

    Point being, certain exercises will cause physical feelings. Everything people talk about as "qi" feelings I've felt, as far as I can tell, but always just thought it was perfectly natural responses of my physiology.

    Whereas, you seem to be putting back my work, lol, because you seem to be claining that it does have some kind of super natural effect - I mean, correct me if I'm wrong - but the impression I get is you're saying it IS capable of somehow having some kind of extra-physical, super natural effect - maybe, accessing "occult powers" or something, or even powerful enough to cause massive psyhological change? Is it hell. If people are "on the edge" then the power of their own suggestive mind might tip them over if they "believe" that they are accessing magical powers - in which case, don't feed that fantasy that it does "access" anything at all, is what i think.
     
  12. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Man how early do you people get up?!?!?! :D Seriously pages of a thread to catch up on!
    Okay starting here:

    JK,
    1) I agree with you completely about "calling a spade a spade" and if a person is simply feeling inadequate and overbearing I will state as such. However, what I also meant is this in NOT just these type of people. Some people are NOT this way and you still leave their company feeling tired, almost sick. If I can use regular old terminology and state a person is this (xyz) I will do so, however, there are times when they don't really fall into this category and it can be difficult to explain.

    2) I don't think that way at all, do you think doctors talk mysteriously? They do use Latin after all, or other medical terminology that when it gets complex is lost on most people. What of even a gourmet Chef? My cousin uses cooking terminology that sounds off the wall and I have no idea what he is talking about at times. Does this make him esoteric (in terms of cooking) or self-absorbed?

    No it is the terminology of the area, even between MA when you get different stylists talking it can sound "esoteric" and "self-absorbed" to people who don't practice. It is the terminology of the art, I know one of the main differences is that usually people of these professions can put it into terminology for everyday/lay people. (bolded so I could make that part clear). However, there is medical terminology that simple does not work so well for lay people. Do they talk about it to sound "esoteric" and "self-absorbed" (some might) but that is more the way they know how to communicate effectively within their realm, rather than explaining it.

    I personally would like to think, most people here on MAP that practice Qigong have stayed away from much of the "fluffy" "mysterious" terminology used in Qigong. Sometimes you simply cannot as it can be difficult to explain, as with other professions, a doctor can tell another doctor that the patient is on a Drug 4 Q.I.D. what does this mean? They take the drug 4 times a day.

    Point being that sometimes it is easier to use the terminology within an art, than taking more time to explain it and draw it out.

    [/QUOTE]
    There is a kind of gravitation in the mind whereby good rushes to good and evil to evil. This mingled repulsion and desire drew towards them everything else in me that was bad. The idea that if there were Occult knowledge it was known to very few and scorned by the many became an added attraction ... That the means should be Magic - the most exquisitely unorthodox thing in the world, unorthodox by Christian and by Rationalist standards - of course appealed to the rebel in me. ... If there had been in the neighbourhood some elder person who dabbled in dirt of the Magical kind (such have a good nose for potential disciples) I might now be a Satanist or a maniac.

    C.S. Lewis, Surprised By Joy, p.166, 1955 edition [/QUOTE]

    Julie,
    Can you explain to me how this point in the quote:
    "unorthodox by Christian and by Rationalist standards " Makes any sense?
    Doesn't Christian belief have some Irrational beliefs? Moses? Revelations? People having visions? So how can you compare this with "Rationalist standards"?

    Also this part (to me) supports Qigong:
    "There is a kind of gravitation in the mind whereby good rushes to good and evil to evil. "
    In the fact, that I belief it to be good. I have seen people walk away from class/treatments feeling better than when they went in. They have been able to go to their WESTERN MDS showing marked improvement when in combination with western/eastern therapies. These people range from cancer survivors, to severe physical trauma patients.

    The proof is in the results, if people walk away from a treatment (regardless of western/qigong/acupuncture) better isn't that the most important thing? Sure some may come away with unpleasent (to severe) side effects, but the exact same is true with ALL MEDICINE! Even western drugs have numerous side effects. What of Chemotherapy, holy cow, you have to practically die to live! Some people even enter into deep depression, behavioral problems, thoughts of suicide, or hallucinations. Does this mean we should wage a war against Chemotherapy?

    I'll be honest, you are right when you say there are people that are attracted to Qigong and Qi because of the "esoteric" powers. The mythical "god like" status that you could reach blah blah blah blah blah, this is garbage! I will openly admit that, anyone that practices for these reasons practices for the WRONG reasons. This is like someone who trains in the MA just so he/she can learn to KILL someone outright. The first goal should be b/c you want to improve, not gain "mystical insight".

    Next:
    JK,
    The section you posted was so long and drab I didn't even bother to read it. Where ever you got it, put it back :D It seems like it just babbles on without ever getting to the point, not really explaining anything. If this is what you read in regards of Qigong, I can see what you mean about being "self-absorbed" and egocentric and never getting a straight answer. It is not worth the time to read such trash (imo).

    but with this:
    Yes and No,
    Again, this case (as stated above) is hard to say, it seems that the lady that freaked out oh her fellow student seems to have some already prevalent paranoia issues. But the student could have very well, been "drawing qi" from her b/c she (unconscously) fed into this students paranoia issues (kind of a "birds of a feather flock together" idea). What I mean is this:

    Let's take love,
    You love another person and this love is so deep and meaningful you share it every way you possibly can (physical, mental, emotional) everyday. This is a great feeling and a great place to be. You obviously love being with this person. You are naturally "attracted" to this person and completely and fully exp. everything with them.

    This model works with other emotions and feelings as well, so if (as the example above) a person is paranoid, angry, frustrated, it can be easy for another person who is paranoid, angry, frustrated, to feed into this. No one can deny that they have just "sensed" that someone is feeling "off" or sad, angry etc. Some say you notice this b/c of body posture, tone of voice etc, I agree with that. But when you are exp. any emotion you are also mentally and energetically different.

    The obvious example here is when you are happy, you have high levels of "energy/qi" and want to be active and go out and do things. But when you are sad/depressed, then you have low "energy/qi". I have mentioned before that many ideas of Qi have been explained by modern science/psychology, but there are still other areas where the ideas of Qi are "esoteric" and modern science/psychology still has not gotten there.

    For example, how is a blind person able to "see" if a person is sad, angry or happy if we tell these emotions by body posture? Or a deaf person if we tell these emotions by sound of voice? What of someone that is blind and deaf are they then emotionally cut off?

    Sorry I babbled on there, but each time someone does "energetic vampirism" the case can be different. As I mentioned before, the person "draining the energy" could just be psychologically dependent, this does not change the fact that after you meet with them you feel drained.

    Or said person, could be doing it unconsciously and trying to connect with someone that has similar emotional thoughts/ideas.

    Or (worst of all) they are doing it intentionally, psychologically these people maybe sociopaths and they feed into your own ideas/beliefs/emotions getting "a rise" out of your distress, just so they can feel alive, or are curious of the outcome.

    Lastly,
    Any of these "Qi feelings" people talk about, (imo) are true, (when you stimulate the mind you are bound to get physiological effects). But during all my qigong training we NEVER focus on this sensation. You never get "caught up" in the "oooooo, I have a warm feeling in my abdomen" sensation. Because this is not the goal of the practice, you are merely trying to calm the mind and do light physical exercise with Qigong.

    The mind (more often than not) lacks focus, people try to maintain this focus in a number of ways: reading, dancing, typing, cooking, Martial arts etc. Qigong is another method to apply focus and do physical exercise (similar to TCC) with the main difference being, Qigong focuses more on the MIND. The visualizations are more often than not a way to distract the mind and allow the body a way to relax. This is actually a method being applied in some psychological counseling, even in REBT (Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_Emotive_Behavior_Therapy

    If people are using Qigong as an "escape from everyday life" This is wrong. If they are using it b/c of "esoteric beliefs" This is wrong. If a teacher is using Qigong and feeding into a person's delusions, this is wrong. If a teacher cannot see or tell when a person is emotionally disturbed (or takes them on saying Qigong can "cure it") This is wrong.

    A true Qigong teacher should almost be like a psychological counselour and be able to understand when they get students that they should not teach/feed into dilusional psychosis. A Qigong teacher should understand Qigong is behavioral therapy and be able to guide students through learning about their belief system. Not systematically destroying it.

    Anyways, I know this was another long post and most probably won't read it. Though I want to point out, I don't claim this all as "gospel/truth" but this is my exp. with my own teachers (one is a licensed psychotherapist in REBT) and my own understanding and studies. I also know some won't agree with it, but that is your own choice, I only wish to educate some people, as there are those out there whom SHOULD NOT BE TEACHING QIGONG, b/c they have very little idea of it's core ideas. Also, b/c they have been taught to feed into their own irrational beliefs and are not suited to help others get rid of theirs.
     
  13. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Now then there is so much there I'll have to address what I can now and come back to it later...

    I believe in the truth and think it can be psychologically damaging to indulge in fantasy. If one is not in water, then one should not imagine one is - it starts to blur the boundaries between what is real and what is imagined.

    So on thursday night I did a class where we practiced a rending kind of application on an opponent and I described the metaphor of rending silk, but I did not want the students to visualise rending silk, only to understand the metaphor and to apply it on another human body to see how it felt. If they were practicing the movement as solo form work, I might want them to visualise their opponent rather than a piece of silk because it would be more accurate and would therefore engage their body in a more literally applicable manner. Similarly when practicing reeling silk drills - I don't want anyone to imagine that they ARE reeling silk, only to understand the metaphor and why it is used. It is about literal training - I don't want my students to think they are doing anything other than training for combat with another human being, because they're not.

    This is what I meant about mundane explanations never being adequate for qi believers who always insist that there is "more to" everything and that qi is the only possible explanation for it. They will of course also resist any attempt to understand or explain it in mundane terms by insisting continually that it is too hard to explain. One wonders how they understand it themselves, if indeed they do...

    I have known a few medical students and health professionals and in my experience they would always be more than willing to try to explain things and translate them to convey information to you as accurately as possible. If people won't do that and insist instead on using jargon then yes, that is by definition esoteric and most likely a sign of self-absorption and ego.
     
  14. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I think that a blind or deaf person may feel a bit emotionally cut off in certain circumstances. A TV series I watched earlier this year involved a group of people with a variety of disabilities crossing the Namib desert together. One of the participants was profoundly deaf and sometimes felt very cut off from the others - when they would not take the time to engage with him in a face to face expressive manner, or when it was dark - he needed a lot more visual indicators of emotion and content (lip reading their words).

    Regarding REBT, I think that these methods, like Cognitive Behavioural Therapy can focus too much on placing the onus on the patient and not enough on genuine environmental factors. Someone may be experiencing genuine prejudice and even abuse where they live so their feelings of being oppressed may be well grounded. Additionally, I think it plays too much into the "everything is relative" world view that rejects fixed realities and renders everything subjective (absolutist perspectives being frowned upon, especially where they do not help the patient "feel good" - the system is based not on what it is emotionally "useful" to believe.) It is deeply ironic then when phrases such as these are used:

    This statement suggests that there IS such a thing as fixed rationality or irrationality after all, but who then decides those parameters? I would argue that belief in qi is an intrinsically irrational belief, but I imagine your teacher feels differently.

    Furthermore, concepts such as changing "... one's unhealthy feelings to healthy, self-helping emotions" do not take into account that the patient might deserve to feel bad because they have behaved very badly (or held innapropriate beliefs) and awareness of this, along with accompanying righteous guilt, might be the only thing that will switch their empathy back on towards others and provoke a behavioural change. In short, feeling bad can, where appropriate, be quite healthy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2007
  15. Julie (MTA)

    Julie (MTA) Banned Banned

    Taoquan wrote:
    Taoquan, you misunderstand the quote. At this point in his life, C.S. Lewis had rejected Christianity and tried to embrace Materialism / Rationalism. However, at that time he found the idea of Magic and "a world behind, or around, the material world" alluring.
    He was not arguing that there was a single united Christian Rationalist perspective, but that the belief in Magic was incompatible with both the Christian world view and also the Rationalist world view. By clashing with both of those world views, a belief in Magic carried twice the kudos and therefore appealed to his rebellious tendencies / ego.

    C.S. Lewis wrote:
     
  16. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    JK,

    1) What if the truth is MORE psychologically damaging than fantasy? I.e. someone has repressed memory of abuse, but they remember so and so as being kind. Do you let them remember the false FANTASY of kindness or tell them the TRUTH?

    2) I agree, and have always been open to you and the forums that I cannot always explain it. Nor do I fully understand it. But Give me one person who has the answer to EVERYTHING!

    3)
    I feel I have been more than willing to do my best to put everything into a clearer context. Though apparently I am :bang: :bang: :bang: my head against a wall. Even if I am able to relate most of the ideas to modern theory, I am "trying to tie it into something so it makes sense" or whatever excuse people make. So I will keep :bang: :bang: :bang: doing my best.

    Actually this is why they also incorporate counseling, it is an error to think REBT professionals only say "well believe it is different and it will be." No, first off in the US if a person was in such a situation the therapist would be liable for not reporting such (esp. if it were in a family situation). So many therapists will do all they can to help the physical/evironmental situation as much as they can in addition to mental/emotional. Actually one of things we were taught is: "The most radical differences among people are the ones most likely to be traceable to the environment (or nuture)."

    1) Actually a good example of an irrational belief is: "You are what you do."
    If you tell a lie are you a liar? No, labeling someone a liar implies they would NEVER be able to tell the truth. Or if they steal are they a thief? No, a thief would steal ALL THE TIME. If you practice MA are you a Martial Artist? No, then you would ONLY do MAs.

    The idea is these are things you DO NOT WHO YOU ARE! Within REBT there are 2 types of beliefs:

    a) Rational (reality based)
    b) Irrational (non-reality based)
    Rational beliefs usually but not always leads to positive and/or negative emotions AND self-ENHANCING behavior.
    Irrational beliefs usually but not always lead to emotional DISTURBANCES and self-DEFEATING behavior.

    So within the context of Qigong, if you have a practitioner that already has Irrational beliefs (as what JK and Julie are arguing about) you can have emotional disturbances (and as above it is the fault of the teacher for not seeing such/or still teaching knowing this). However, if they have rational beliefs Qigong can be a way to benefit and self-enhance positive behavior.

    This belief system can consist of/be formulated from:
    a) Values
    b) Beliefs
    c) Thoughts
    d) Conditioning and education
    e) Attitudes
    f) Habits

    Here are some common irrational beliefs as well:
    a) People must live up to my expectations or it is terrible! Why? what happens if they don't?
    b) I can't really stand bad things or very difficult people! Yes, you can "stand it" you are still here aren't you?
    c) I must be approved or accepted by people I find important! Why is THEIR acceptance important?

    Lastly, I have never asked my teacher if he believes Qi is an irrational belief. I will ask and get back to you there.

    2) I agree as would my teacher, however it gets to be unhealthy if they get involved in self-DEFEATING behavior b/c of the bad exp. For example:

    You just get done with TCC practice, you had a bad practice and you have twisted your ankle. You feel bad that you hurt yourself and feel worse you may have to miss a week or two of practice. Now you can:
    a) just miss a week or two and train a few other ways till you get better
    b) think that you botched up the training it is your fault and you were not meant to practice TCC.
    c) Ignore the injury all together and keep training despite the pain and agony of the ankle.

    b,c are both self-defeating behaviors

    b is b/c you have all the sudden made an irrational belief "YOU botched up training, it is YOUR fault, YOU are not meant to practice TCC"

    c is b/c despite the injury you will continue training, regardless of physical injury you are causing to yourself. Self-defeating physically.

    So yes, it is good to feel bad, but many don't just "feel bad" they take it to extremes and develop irrational thoughts, which leads to self-defeating behaviors.

    okay so this whole post was :topic: but there is a certain amount of psycholgy that is brought up with Qigong (Qigong psychosis). So maybe some of this should of been brought to light.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2007
  17. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well, it certainly can, but you're confusing different things, I think. The kind of fantasy imagery, say, of running scenarios through your head - like, all thebad things that could happen, or maybe even of the bad things that you want to make happen - can become recognized psychological conditions.

    However, in terms of sports science, a lot of visualisation is used. I'm surprised you don't use that because it is a highly practical way of training people to be mentally able to take pain and hits - just imaginign being hit can cause a physical response.

    However, the reason for imagining being in water, say, is because one it helps explain the kind of feeling you should be achieveing, and two because the visualisation can then transfer to a much more powerful feeling, gneerating better results - much in the same way that weight lifters focus on the muscle they are working on.

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating, however.



    I think, that would be impossible - unless one is mentally retarded.

    Well, I, personally, should I ever recommend silk reeling, would explain the truth - which is that it is called that partly because of the feeling, and that visualising reeling silk, the feeling, the light resistance, is exactly why it is called that.

    But again, the proof of the pudding is in the eating - are your students becoming powerful and effective?
     
  18. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Putting myself out there but meh,

    Who was C.S. Lewis????
     
  19. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Best known for writing the Chronicles of Narnia (The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe etc)
     
  20. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Hi jkz, I'll do my best in the time I have tonight!

    Regarding the above example during a qigong class....I have witnessed a few extreme reactions from students whilst doing qigong. These range from suddenly bursting into uncontollable crying/ passing out/ acute nausea/ feeling extreme fear. My understanding is this....during qigong (as in any meditative practice where the mind is cleared) unwanted
    emotions/fears/events from the past/trauma etc that we spend our lives locking away from our concious mind so that we can live our lives free from distress...these are all now accessable and can suddenly flood into the persons mind. This obviously produces extreme feelings. So, imo, things that are felt whist in a qigong class come from within. This is why I bang on about always learning qigong with a teacher. Whilst it can clear traumatic emotional baggage, if you have no-one qualified to discuss it with, and who can guide you, it can potentially make people mentally ill.

    In my experience, psychic vampires are usually quite unaware they are doing it, it is also very hard to detect when it is happening. They usually are very inexperienced in qi work.

    So, my answer would be yes, it is possible, but in the above case the phenomenia (sp?) comes from within.

    Sorry if this reads rambley and weird...any q's from the above I will also try to answer!

    Your second question...I don't have time to read so much info...sorry jkz.

    Carys :Angel:
     

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