Can some people be gifted...

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Orangeseger, Oct 9, 2007.

  1. Orangeseger

    Orangeseger YouTube =/= Training

    Can some people be natural adepts in qigong or the like? Is it possible that some people are born more in tune with their energies and the forces around them...or is everyone for the most part on a some what level playing field?
  2. nready

    nready Verifying DMI pool....

    Sense no one has answered yet I will tell you some thing about Qigong.

    The thing is the person would have to have a very deep understanding of the body. Qigong is not just some old stupid method to train the body. It is not just movement.

    It has a system that when you have say been practice like the one I do, that last about one hour and thirty minutes the 18 Wudang make me sweat but I do not feel tired. There by I am able to go on and work out even harder on martial arts and the like.

    While I don't think there is anyone just born with the ability to find a set of workouts that involve every thing from doing push-up, squats that can end up being done several hundred times and the body not feel pain or tired from doing them. It involves how the qigong are put in order that aid in the process of maintaining the health.

  3. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    As opposed to 'natural ability', it is more about the individual's personal traits.

    Determination, attention to minute detail, and the patience to put hours and hours of practice in. Also the ability and grit to practice daily...even on holiday.

    Having said that, some people are aware of their energy very early on which greatly advances their practice over other students who have yet to feel their energy.

    It still comes down to thousands of hours of practice.
  4. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Carys and Stiffnready hit it right on the head (imo),

    It is not so much about "natural ability" as it is more to do with practice. A perfect example:

    It was once said to me that to be a great MA/Qigong practitioner it reguires a few things:

    1) Determination
    2) Practice
    3) Willingness to learn
    4) Natural ability

    Natural ability is last b/c even if you have natural ability and DON'T practice you simple waste it. However, someone that has NO natural ability can develop a high level of ability b/c they put in the time to practice. In qigong it is important to remember there is no "superior way" (notice I said superior not right, as per our discussion in the other thread there is absolutely right ways and wrong ways in Qigong). But more about the amount one practices and invests into the art, Qigong in this respect is the same as anything else, work hard at it and you will get rewards. Casually "mess around here and there" and you might get a bit of something.

    Really when it gets down to it, determination and practice are the most important factors of Qigong. There are the ones that practice Qigong for what are the 'right reasons' (in my mind). What I mean by this is they don't practice for "supernatural powers" They don't practice to become "god-like", they practice because they know of the benefits and love the practice. They love what Qigong can do and does for people, they don't focus on "becoming something" they rather focus on "being."

    Gosh, sounds a bit esoteric...*goes back to his mountain hut where he has NO computer...* :D
  5. Orangeseger

    Orangeseger YouTube =/= Training

    Qigong sounds awesome...and taking into consideration what people told me about the dangers of practice without a qualified instructor, I would like to find someone to at least teach me the basics. (But I would love to have the chance to learn from a master, especially if it involves visiting temple/monastary or the like.)

    However, being in the middle of Lancaster, Pennsylvania....qigong isn't exactly going to be easy to find. (Unless the Amish are holding out on us...)
  6. nready

    nready Verifying DMI pool....

    Now that the group has hit you with the basic idea, here is something of a personal note.

    After a little time in practice one winter month in Kansas City I noticed something odd. I had a itching in my little finger on my right hand. This altered me to a simple thing I had some weakness that needed to be dealt with, right than. What could it have been probably, a cold. Not to mean that this is all that great just Qigong does not do something amazing it taps the neural network in the body. It is just the body natural state

    It improves the function of the endocrine system. It starts in the kidneys and than works its way threw each of the glands. That is the basic idea behind the Qigongs. Should you want knowledge first from writings I would suggest that you first read, oh, well, Jerry Allen Johnson has the best book on the subject I have ever read. The named book is: Medical Qigong, others would be Mantak Chi and his wife Manwan, I think his name is Yi a so-so book, the books by Dr.Yang Jwing Ming will be hard for most to get he writes like a medical student (i.e. he is a Dentist), The Web That Has No Weaver by ? is more a Chinese Medicine book but it could help a lay person in Qigong. There are so many more things that just would take forever to write about Qigong.

    Excellent post Taoquan and I really liked your post CarysB. CarysB felt like you finished my thought.

    Also one of the thing I feel detracts from the meaning of Qigong is when you here statement like this, "When a man wants to die he need only stop practicing Qigong!". While that may be how it feels to anyone that has grown accustomed it, it leaves the on lookers thinking it is magic.
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2007
  7. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    I may know of a practitioner near you, it has been about 7 years so it is a stretch I will have to get back to you.

    Good post Stiffnready. :D
  8. Julie (MTA)

    Julie (MTA) Banned Banned

    It doesn't bother you then that Jerry Allan Johnson teaches people to engage in demonology and practice sexual vampirism? And it doesn't bother you at all that Mantak Chia has made a "Five Minute Cure for Cancer and Dis-eases" DVD? All of this is perfectly acceptable and an indication of their credibility and trustworthiness, yes? Do you think I should recommend the DVD to someone I know who has terminal lung cancer?
  9. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    First off Jerry Alan Johnson does NOT TEACH these things, he mentions them. As for Chia, I have already spoken out about his stuff. Though, with most Qigong no reputable person says "I have the cure for everything!!!" Most agree in conjuction with modern therapies Qigong is quite beneficial, I have never had a teacher tell a patient to stop with modern therapies. I have however, seen patients get better with a combination of both and w/o the awful side effects of cancer therapies of the west.

    And welcome to MAP Julie :D
  10. Julie (MTA)

    Julie (MTA) Banned Banned

    From his website:
  11. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    This is THEORY, I know people who have studied with Jerry Alan Johnson and it is setup like a classroom setting. They discuss and techniques are shown, but actual sexual vampirism is not performed. This is a choice left to an individual, it is taught so one can know how to counteract the effects. For there are people out there that practice this (consciously or unconsciously) and to know of it and how to protect/change/heal the effects you must know what is done.

    A Teacher cannot always be held responsible for what students do with the knowledge that is given. If I were to go out and kill someone with TCC or IMA training does that mean my teacher is a bad person? If he/she is then what if I go and kill someone with a weapon (modern or otherwise) is the person that taught me how to use the weapon a bad person? or how about the individual who made said weapon?

    Just because the knowledge exists and is taught/discussed does not mean it is bad for a teacher to do so. The more informed a person is the better, the individual ultimately makes the choice how to use ANY knowledge and ANY knowledge can be made into good or bad.

    The whole story is this:

    1. Daoist of the Right-Hand:

    The right-handed or orthodox path of Daoism emphasizes prayer, meditation, rituals and other spiritual disciplines that insist on a high degree of cultivated virtue, purity, and rules of conduct. In training, the practice of the Daoist of the Right Hand brings internal peace to the individual's Yuan Shen (Original Spirit). The right-handed Daoists generally embody the specific practices of either monastic life (being celibate, renouncing social positions, etc.), or family life (being married, raising children, and assuming specific leadership roles in guiding the virtues of society). The Daoist of the Right-Hand are further divided into two traditional schools of training, Orthodox Training and Reclusive Training. These two Daoist schools are describes as follows:

    Orthodox Training: This type of Daoist training includes the practice of specific prayers, meditations, memorizing scriptures, performing rituals and acts of charity.

    Reclusive Training: This type of Daoist training is sometimes regarded as the higher path of the Daoist Right-Hand school of training. It requires the mystic to remove him or herself from society becoming a lone sage. After recognizing the flaws of ritualistic forms of worship and giving up the politically ingrained patterns of religious dogma, the mystic generally retreats to a cave for internal introspection. Although ritualistic forms of worship are essential for purifying the mind, any form of external oriented action can also keep the mind bound to the external world. Therefore, in the highest stages of Daoist mystical training, the individual releases all attachments to material objects (people, places and things) and spiritual powers (controlling the Elements, the Six Transportations of Shen, etc.) and strives only to attain "oneness" with the eternal Dao through self-introspection.

    2. Daoist of the Left-Hand:

    The left-handed or unorthodox path of Daoism embodies the specific practices that the right-handed Daoists have rejected (e.g., sexual cultivation, ingesting intoxicants, etc.). This does not mean that the left-handed path of Daoist mysticism does not involve orthodox practices (i.e., rituals, incantations, talismans, etc.), however, the path that the mystic sojourns is quite different. In training, the practice of the Daoist of the Left Hand brings passion and ecstasy to the Zhi Shen (Acquired Spirit). The Daoist of the Left-Hand are further divided into two traditional schools of training: Symbolic Training, and Literal Training. These two Daoist schools are describes as follows:

    Symbolic Training: This type of Daoist training includes the symbolic use of "forbidden things." For example, sexual intercourse is observed as the cosmic union of Yang (male) and Yin (female) energetic forces within the psyche; Intoxication is viewed as partaking of the bliss of pure divine consciousness of the Dao. In the Symbolic school of Daoist Left-Hand training, certain internal concepts are considered to be in harmony with those internal concepts of the Daoist Right-Hand school of training.

    Literal Training: This type of Daoist training includes the actual use and training of "forbidden things." For example, sexual intercourse is taught using either single cultivation ("vampiring" the partner's life-force energy), or duel cultivation (exchanging energy with a partner); Intoxication is achieved through the consumption, ingestion or inhalation of herbs, hallucinogenic drugs, and herbal pills, wines and tinctures.

    If you are going to post it, post it all. There is good and bad to everything, even christianity teaches of the devil and his "tricks" one has to learn of evil to stay away from evil. If you are on a righteous path, you should know even more about it so you can counteract it. This does not mean you PRACTICE EVIL, this is a huge difference practicing and knowing are two separate concepts.
  12. nready

    nready Verifying DMI pool....

    That is a theory if you want to know it, I can tell you even the practice without having sex also for vampiring. Mean there is more to the theory than the having sex.

    It does not even bother me that you bring it up here that Mantak is suggesting five minute cure for cancer. It is up to Mantak to take responsibility for what he does not me. It is up to the person looking for the answers what to believe also, I am just giving suggestion to Orangeseger. I do not think that Orangseger is in need of me to be his moral guide.

    No, I do not thank they are any more credible than most who put out information on Qigong. Again, they are putting out information what you do with it is up to you. They are a type of salesmen so do not trust them totally.

    The suggesting the dvd is up to you!

    Well Orangeseger, the thing is yea it is possible someone could but it does not mean they are anymore aware than you. You need to be aware of your own body and that is kinda what Qigong does for you, make you more aware of your own bodies needs.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2007
  13. Julie (MTA)

    Julie (MTA) Banned Banned

    To me, that says it all.
  14. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    So you think that it is possible for a human being to "vampire" someone else's so-called "life force energy"? And you think it is possible for a human being to "create and dissolve spirit entities"?

    Who do they learn such "skills" from? In your opinion, is it all just part and parcel of Daoism? (or what Daoism has become?) Can you tell me where such methods are mentioned in Laozi, Zhuangzi or Liezi?
  15. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Psychic vampirism is part and parcel of IMA, imo. I have learnt over time to shield myself from both deliberate and accidental theft of my energy.

    Interestingly, the most consistant and powerful energy vampires I have encountered have all been Reiki practitioners.

    Sexual energy vampirism is a different matter though, as women have unlimited amounts, it isn't harmful for her to have energy taken during the sexual act (with a male).

    Glad to hear from you again jkz (hope you are well) has been very 'homey' here of late. :D
  16. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Welcome again JK :D
    1) For your first half of the question, I think it possible and have experienced it with patients (of acupuncture and Qigong). Modern Psychology would term them as "needy or overbearing" patients, but being around these people physically and mentally drains you. You can be with them in the room just talking (asking questions as we do in TCM) and after you are done, you quite literally need a nap.

    The thing with this is it is not just me who exps. this. We have students that observe with us, other practitioners etc. to where we might have 3 other people in the room. They all leave the room saying they feel physically and mentally exhausted after just being with one patient. Some don't do it on purpose, they really need this much attention/energy to survive. Others do it for selfish reasons so they don't have to cultivate the energy themselves.

    2) Specifically (imo) you should learn such techniques (if this truly is a desire of yours) to learn the techs from actualy priests. Not "lay persons" who practice here or there, but true priests/priestesses whom actually practice such. Most people think this can be learned from a book, I think we have already covered this is not only impossible, but very dangerous.

    3) Depends on your branch of Taoism, there are many different sects of Taoism. Taoists of Thunder magic actually do use these techs do "dispel and banish demons" or use techs of Exorcism. Where as you have your internal arts taoists that practice predominantly Qigong, meditation and don't utilize spirit ideas as much. Or you have ceremonial Taoists that just use ceremonies, either to communicate with spirits, or NO spirits at all, but just give praise to the Tao.

    Just as there are specialists in everything else, Taoism has its specific areas of study or interests as well and the priests/priestesses that practice it. The thing is Qigong is usually not taught with "spiritual connotations" within most Taoist practices. I reiterate SHENGONG training is working with spirits (including your own) and is much more shamanistic in this respect. Qigong (energy skill) is sometimes a "stepping stone" or "prequel" to Shengong (spiritual skill) but it is usually up to the individual if they choose to practice Shengong training.

    4) Thing is Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu, Liezi (Lieh Tzu), are popular books....IN THE WEST! They are fairly ordinary in the Taoist Canon (which literally has 1,000's of other volumes) and are taught and used more for Internal Alchemy rather than any kind of spiritual work. There are Taoist texts that work with spirits and demon possession, but then I challenge you to give me ONE religion that does not have such works/ideas.

    Now I know that many will say: "These books (TTC, CT, LZ) are nothing more than philosophy." In the west that is true, but this is where the oral tradition of Taoism comes in to teach the adept of the meditations that go along with each and every chapter of said texts. Actually, I may be wrong about the Liezi, as I have heard no mention of that being an Internal Alchemy text.

    Again, these are just 3 little books out of 1,000's of volumes, what of the Hua Hu Ching (Other writings by Lao Tzu), Huainanzi (cosmological theory)...there are many, many more books that are just now getting translated. Anyone that claims to have all the knowledge of these is lying, it simply is not possible (especially most westerners) b/c most ancient Taoist texts are within the canon are written in ancient chinese. There are few that could understand such.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2007
  17. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    I am not disagreeing with you that this is bad julie. However, how many other books are out there that do the same thing?
  18. nready

    nready Verifying DMI pool....

    I wrote that, not Orangeseger. It is very possible to tap the Ida and Pengala channels! Or vamp.

    It depends on what you mean by dissolve.

    It is part of all cultures of religion. Christianity and the Catholic have writing on demonology. The point is to understand for me, not that I would use such things. The reason they exist is primal fear in all of man. It goes back to the flight on the plains, better to run and not know what it was out of the corner of the eye. Or you could know and learn to deal with it.

    I agree and a woman should regularly have the energy of the sexual side moved in them or they get very aggressive. Also, I believe woman gives this to man and man give some to woman as well.
  19. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Hi folks, firstly sorry to stiffnready and orangeseger for mixing up the quote.

    Ironically that is how I feel whenever I try to have a conversation here about CMAs. Every conversation quickly becomes about mysterious, edgy, dark, inexplicable, mystical things - no mundane explanation is ever good enough. Whenever any kind of Western explanation is given or parallel is drawn, we are ALWAYS told "but there is more to it than that in a way that only the Ancient Chinese and modern Masters of Internal Practices understand."

    For example, to take CarysB's point (Hi Carys btw - and sorry to pick out your point - it is nothing personal), perhaps you could tell me how this "psychic vampirism" differs from plain old "out-psyching" an opponent by convincing them that you have less concern for their life (or your own) than they have for yours or anyone else's.

    Taoquan - the terminology "needy and overbearing" is quite adequate terminology - why do people feel the need to Chinese / Internal Arts everything up by always talking in terms of energy?

    I think the egocentric and self-absorbed need for some people to talk mysteriously is the reason combat is so rarely discussed around here and why I find it so draining. You guys are "vampiring my energy"!!! :D
  20. Julie (MTA)

    Julie (MTA) Banned Banned

    I happened to read this a couple of days ago and instantly thought of Qigong practitioners.


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