Can Anyone truly master all KS has to offer?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Quozl, Feb 2, 2010.

  1. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Hi All,

    I notice in some threads, in particular the "New Master's" thread, some discussion that has been around the block a few times as to who deserves promotion to Master and who doesn't, and time in service verses skill etc.

    My one question to this is can anyone truly "master" everything KSW has to offer?

    Can anyone be expected to be a true master of all the hyung, all the techniques, all the acrobatic exercises, all the weapons skills, all the kicking and punching skills etc?

    Is this a mark of the true master? Somebody who can perform every single aspect of KS flawlessly?

    If this is the case, then one would have to argue then that there should be very few masters in KSW (and maybe other KS varients) :dunno:?

    However, if one can learn the sylabus and perform to a sufficient degree in all aspects, without being perfect and flawless in all of them, then, maybe there should be more masters :dunno:?

    Or is the mark of a true master one who can learn to teach others to mastery and flawless performance, even without necessarily having the full ability to do everything themselves :dunno: ?

    I suppose I am interested to learn what the term "Master" means to people these days.

    In some respects I ask as I am aware that in other martial arts irrespective of "time served" a 4th degree black belt will not be put forward for promotion to 5th dan / dahn (I suppose the most widely recognised rank for a master in my experience but please correct me if I am wrong) until that 4th degree has proved "worthy" of the rank of 5th dan / dahn (whatever "worthy" means) or "ready" for 5th dan / dahn (again whatever "ready" means in this circumstance).

    I am also aware in days gone by, in some Japanese MAs for instance, if a person of lower rank beat a person of higher rank (fairly or unfairly it would appear) then they took that higher person's rank. So one way to attain master rank was to do one over on the master, and if you survived and the master didn't you were the new master :cool: . A bit law of the jungle but ...

    As always, your thoughts are most welcome.

    Quozl
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2010
  2. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    Reminds me of Afro Samurai somewhat.
     
  3. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    That was a great analysis, Quozl, and that last bit you mentioned is where the "skill-based testing argument" is built from. The other stuff you mentioned, about having partial knowledge of the curriculum (but enough of it to be deemed worthy), or having the ability to convey the skills of the entire curriculum to others despite one's personal skill level, is how MA systems that don't put as much stock in skill-based testing usually do it.

    The personal perspective of most people I know in MA, is typically based on the way their MA of choice tends to look at this conundrum. Those that appreciate skill above all else will naturally be drawn to a MA system that has skill-based testing. Those that appreciate knowledge more will seek out a system that lauds achievements in that realm. So it seems like a cop-out answer, but the truth is that it all boils down to POV.

    As for me, knowledge is a great thing but a fair amount of skill should still be expected, given the fact that injury/old age are taken into consideration. In regard to the knowledge aspect, I'm always drawn to the old saying, "Give a man a fish and feed him today, teach a man to fish and feed him for life."
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2010
  4. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Thanks UK KJN SIr.

    I have copied Herbo's post here as I think possibly it may sit better here, but that is only my opinion.

    "This is my personal opinion on rank.

    From my perspective for rank to mean anything it needs to be measured by skill. As such skill should be measured against your peers, so that higher levels become populated by increasingly talented individuals. This is where arts with a primarily competitive focus e.g. bjj, judo etc seem to have better quality control (I know there are exceptions but I maintain that for the majority this is true).
    Obviously there comes a stage where great practitioners become too old to compete fairly with the younger generations. At this stage I believe subsequent ranks can be administered as 'honour' ranks, in conjunction with syllabus. However for this to remain fair, there needs to be a council for decision, not just one man e.g. GM IHS.

    Personally I think 1st - 4th dahn could be measured on competitive skill.

    I have nothing against time in grade requirements in addition to proven skill but on their own, allow people to quietly serve their time and "slip through the net" so to speak.

    Thoughts welcomed as always"


    My only thought on this Herbo, is that how does one measure that competitive aspect in KS where most of the sylabus is in traditional forms. How does one idetify the skill level in hyung, either open handed or weapons hyung, to determine who has the greatest skill and therefore worthy of promotion above the next person?

    Would it only be those peopl who gained a gold in tournament who would therefore promote to the next level? I ask since this is not alwyas the most fair route, with sometimes biased judging coming to the fore (as other threads have talked about).

    Then since the sylabus becomes more weapons based the higher one goes, such as spear, bow and arrow, sword, staff etc (not to mention short swords short staffs etc) how does one show the proficiency there?

    Does one have to have a kendo style bout in sword, or an archery tournament, or staff sparring (wearing protective equipment) etc?

    Likewise would we have to have some form of tournament for the acrobatic skills we learn.

    This doesn't take into consideration the no martial aspects such as the healing aspect we are supposed to learn at higher ranks, as well as the more "esoteric" aspects such as meditation, and "ki" building.

    I believe that the skill set approach that you advocate is very good for unarmed combatative MAs, such as Judo, or BJJ. However in a more "traditional" MA such as KSW with its very large multi-disciplinary sylabus, competative aspect would mean that it would not be feasible for competition to give rise to any promotions really.

    However, if a competative promotion system were in place, would one have to compete against everyone in the next higer rank in all aspects of KSW, and win, in order to promote?

    I understand what you are saying Herbo, and maybe we can discuss this over a beer sometime, but I cannot see this as being the best way forward for a MA such as KSW.

    Just a thought.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2010
  5. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    I don't see the problem with sparring people of the same rank as you being necessary for promoting. I imagine it would ideally resemble the sport jujitsu competitons considering the crossover between arts. Safety gear is always an option to reduce injury.
    For weapons testing then you spar with weapons, FMA practitioners do it all the time.

    Forms can be tested the way they are now in addition to this. I see no reason to change the current format, other than the inclusion of skill based testing.

    You may think it unfeasible Quozl, but I offer a thought in relation to the topic of this thread. Unless you can apply the techniques you have learned in a resistive setting with similar level practitioners, can you really be called a master.

    We'll definitaly need to discuss this more over a beer lol
     
  6. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    spear sparring? if you don't take off the spear tip, no face-saver or hogu will save you! really though, i think some single-handed sword sparring would be awesome... or would it not, as fencing is a form of sibgle handed sword sparring?
     
  7. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Speaking as someone who has dabbled in western style fencing, I can attest to the fact that it is DEFINITELY a lot of fun. And yet I could never get anyone to answer me on the sword thread (started by Ki_Power) WRT to Lancelot Chan and his Realistic Sparring Weapons. Now that's something I feel would be a blast to try out! :cool:
     
  8. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Only so long as there are fish to catch! ;)
     
  9. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    When our world's oceans are no longer bountiful with fish, that's when it'll be time to "explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilisations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."


    [​IMG]
     
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I never got the impression that KUK SOOL was ever intended to be "mastered".

    From what I have come to understand, the idea behind KUK SOOL was to formulate some sort of venue within which people could investigate Korean Martial Traditions. On the face of things, the idea was to present an image of a finite syllabus or curriculum which one would accomplish in time. Like most Korean commercial ventures, the people in the lead, however, continued to add to the end such that there would always be "one more hill to climb". MA was never actually intended to work this way since the original idea was to use the arts to discover much about one's Self rather than simply become familiar with a lot of biomechanics. Unfortunately, Westerners tend to be a rather shallow lot and often reduce things to their most pedestrian level. As a result Korean traditions are not about learning about one's Self as much as acquiring status and standing to impress the easily impressed. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  11. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Cheers Bruce, thanks for this post, quite enlightening.

    Where there ever, or are there any current, Korean "Masters" in Korean Martial Arts in the same way then as there are and were in Chinese and Japanese MAs in the way you describe, i.e. fdiscovering as much about one's self as the MA itself?

    Also, as another question, were not the MAs (Korean or otherwise) oringinally actually just that, arts to learn how to kill others whilst staying alive one's self?

    When did the MAs stgart to include the more esoteric / philisophical aspects and stop being the, to use Japanese terminology, bujitso, i.e. the militaristic, practical, effective art, to the budo, i.e the way, the path, the enlightenment aspect of "modern" MAs.

    As an aside, although the effective side of MA is important, the enlightenment aspect is interestingly equally imprtant to me, and that is an area that seems to be somewhat lacking in KSW, or certainly in the under BB levels. Would you concur? Or did it originally have that aspect, or is it something that comse higher up the BB ranks?

    Many thanks again Bruce.
     
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    There have been a number of watershed events that have impacted MA in the way that you mention.

    In the case of Chinese MA, the ebb and flow of esoteric though in and out of the physical practices has usually been a function of political change. The single best case that comes to mind is the incredible on-going conflict between the suvivors of the Ming Dyn and the in-coming Manchu who brought in the Qing. Note that military training has always had a belief system that supports the sort of training and the things expected of the fighting man. However, when a practitioner is challenged with losing his practice (or his life) it is always easier to plead that what is being done is all in the name of some other-worldly goal.

    A more recent example of the premise was what happened when Japan lost WW II and the Occupational Forces under Gen MacArthur outlawed the practice of Martial traditions. In that case, almost overnight, all Japanese Martial traditions were suddenly revealed to be all about Peace and Love and Getting-along. You couldn't find a single person who was swinging a sword and screaming "banzai" a year before.

    To answer your question, Q..... "yes" there actually are teachers and MA practitioners who are fighting the sort of fight you mention----within their own soul. You won't find them putting up signs or advertising in the newspapers. Usually they get heard about through word of mouth and most don't really want to be bothered dealing with classes and schools and tuitions etc etc etc. And who can blame them?

    When it comes to the sort of development you are talking about I usually fall back on such organizations as the US Marines, where the "band of brothers" ethos has developed and become institutionalized. Its not something one can be a part of just by joining up but rather is a kind of membership that comes from shared experiences. Its a very difficult thing to discuss in a venue such as this but I'll give a whack if you are interested.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
  13. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I realize you were asking Bruce, Quozl, but now that he's offered his opinion, allow me to chime in with mine. ;)

    What Bruce mentioned definitely has something to do with it, but I don't think you need to look that far back for the answer. Mind you, I'm not blaming it on the likes of the TV series, "kung fu" starring David Carradine, but rather the inspiration for the philosophical slant of that show, namely New Age BS which not only swept across the USA but all of western-culture nations, shortly following the "hippie movement" that saw people flocking to live in squalor on run-down farms as a way to "commune with nature." Oriental thought based more on Lao-tzu or Chuang-tzu than Confucius could easily be seen at the root of the philosophy adopted by such people wrapped up in that post-60's counter-culture. FWIW.


    EDIT:

    I believe the mantra was, "peace, love, & happiness."
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
  14. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    seon mudo is all about enlightenment.
     
  15. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Well.... yes and no, Unknown.

    What you are stating does, in fact, have a lot to do with what I was saying, but not from the standpoint that I was saying it..... if that makes any sense.

    Try this on for size.

    Military training has always had some martial aspect to it as to NOT have a martial aspect meant that said leader was essentially at the head of a mob. Martial fervor is what takes a mob and turns it into a fighting force.

    However.... we now have to consider the conversion from a Military training with a martial underpinning to a civil pass-time where the opportunity to use the military training as it was originally intended is little and none. The result is that, often the martial underpinning BECOMES the practice instead of a catalyst WITH the practice. Again, I draw on the US Marine Corps as a metaphor.

    Joining the Marines means learning to fight as the Marine fight and to support that fighting approach with the belief in that code to which the Marine Corps adheres. That said, though a person joins the Marines, unless that person has been through the same "baptism of fire" that person will always be on the outside. He can dress like a Marine, and talk like a Marine and go to Marine events, but he will always be on the outside.

    So....for the sake of expansion..... lets say that our non-Marine Marine goes out into the community and starts a "camp" for people who want to be "just like real Marines". He can teach them to walk and talk and run and jump and march just like he learned to do in the Marine Corps, but his students will not be "real" Marines any more than that individual was. To compensate for this, our non-Marine Marine may really emphasize the hell outa things like "Code", "Honor", "Corps" and so forth. However these are still just words since the students will never have a chance to take that final move to being authentic Marines.

    Lastly.... is it POSSIBLE to have a "baptism of fire" that might push a person into the realm of being an authentic approximation of the real thing (Marine), and the answer is "yes". Such activities as "Outward Bound" are a good example of "baptism of fire" substitutes in our culture. This effort to take the fight from the battlefield and into one's own Heart and Soul is a huge part of what modern Martial Traditions are about. Too bad that people have gotten the message all balled-up with the messenger.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2010
  16. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    OO-RAH, Bruce. A terrific explanation as usual. :bow1:
     
  17. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Thanks Bruce, I think I see where you are coming from. :cool:

    I also see where you are coming from UN KJN. :cool:

    I think that this link indicates what you are pointing at nicely UN KJN Sir :hat:

    http://www.kifederationofgreatbritain.co.uk/

    However, I also get the feeling that O' Sensei, Morihei Ueshiba, when he first practiced MA was one mean sunovagun. His Aikido is exceedingly effective at causing significant harm to an opponent, whether looking at the jo and ken aspects of Aikido, or the Aikijitsu aspects (unarmed).

    However, the emphasis is on not causing that harm to your opponent, where possible: just by not being where an attack lands and deflecting attacks prevents the necessity for force. When force is necessary, the techniques are sufficent to overpower and imobilise an attacker. However, sometimes beating the living daylights out of somebody is the only way :evil:

    O' Sensei had his baptisms of fire in the Japanese millitary, and also afterwards. However, I could liken him to one of those gun slingers who, having killed dozens of men in Dodge style shoot outs "hangs up his guns" and doesn't want to kill any more people. But that is probably a significant over simplification.

    Anyway Bruce, if you wish to discuss this further on this thread, please feel free, or PM me if you prefer. (I refer to you giving "it a whack". :hat:

    Cheers Gents.

    Quozl
     
  18. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I have given a lot of thought to Ueyshiba Sensei and have to consider him a kind of exception to the rule. Certainly the man who taught at the Nakano Academy and later at the infamous "Hell Dojo" was not the same man who who inspired the likes of Saotome Sensei or Tohei Sensei in their approach to training.

    As a Hapkido practitioner we have no such precedence for our art. The material continues to be taught as a rather unpleasant anvil and hammer which is capable of producing some rather extraordinary changes to personality if allowed. Korean MA, at their core, are about as pleasant to pursue as dental surgery. Most of what represents itself as KMA today has been extensively modified to accomodate the fantasies of the modern world. But for those who seek to produce meaningful change in their life maybe such surgery is exactly what the doctor ordered.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  19. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Thanks for this Bruce. I suppose that I am not suprised that KMA, as you say at their core are, "as pleasant to persue as dental surgery" (nice comparison btw :cool: ). When it comes down to it, they were developed to fight and kill, defeat, and generally destroy one's enemy. If you are fighting to survive, then anything goes.

    However, I also suppose that in this day and age the vast majority of us do not have to fight to survive, (unless posted in the military to a war zone). At best there are essentially petty squables, and "fisticuffs", with the occasional serious fight involving some sort of bladed weapon (generally knives). Very, very occasionally and certainly in the U.K., despite the headlines, here are gun crimes.

    Thus the modern practitioner of MAs, in the main, is not learning the MA of his or her choice in order to learn to fight to survive. "Self defence" is often quoted, but then if somebody want to learn KS for self defence one better not get into any fights for at least 5 or 10 years, as ther get the ability and the understanding of the KS as a practical fighting art, would probably take that long (I would also include AIkido in that kind of time frame as well actually). I sppose TMAs, because of the depth of the study, is so deep, do take longer to learn and become practical.

    I suppose that is why, although I want something practical and useful if I get into fisticuffs, the idea of the "esoteric" (but not mad hippie new age bull UN mentions and is definately out there in some MAs) aspects of MAs appeals to a degree. (I am sort of facinated by O' Sensei for this reason.)

    But, the point I raised for getting a practical "fighting" art from learning TMAs taking a long time seems to me to indicate that the teaching of TMAs is actually significantly different now, than in the past.

    By this I mean that in the past if it took 5 years for your learning to be practical you would be dead in your first fight! You cannot take 5 years to teach a "soldier to fight". (Basic training in the UK being about 6 months, with specialist training in certain specialist roles taking maybe a year after that, but at the end of the first 6 months one could be put into the front line with some pretty reasonable chance of survival.)

    Therefore what has changed in the training of KMA (and other TMA) that means that to become actually anywhere near reasonably proficient one must spend a long time studying, thesedays, when one presumes that the training in days gone by took months or a year or so to become reasonably preficient. (If you can see my reasoning).

    (UN KJN Sir, please feel free to chime in since this wasn't aimed at Bruce specifically, if you so desire. Goes for anyone really.)
     
  20. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Don't forget Quozi that a Soldier would put in at least 40 hours a week during that six months period of training, whereas the average student of the martial arts will probably only attend two (or perhaps three) nights a week for a couple of hours at a time...
     

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