An interesting blog post on the differences (and, importantly, lack of similarities) between them: http://www.coloradospringsninjutsu....8/6_Toshindo_is_not_the_same_as_Bujinkan.html .
What exactly has that got to do with it? I know he got banned, though I missed the events surrounding it. I still thought the blog post was interesting though. Maybe people here think the Bujinkan and Toshindo are the same then?
I'm with James on this one. If a person on here is banned so that they cannot have their say, why make a link to that banned person having their say?
That didn't take long, thread re-opened. No problem with the thread, or the topic. Please stay on topic and discuss the subject matter, rather than the banned member. Thanks for your patience. Simon.
Its been done to death. I've commented on all this before so i'm certainly not going to go through it again.
I personally have a problem with organizations being started by people who are not qualified to do such. If you aren't a menkyo kaiden in these arts, then you aren't qualified. It is really that simple.
Honestly, I don't see TSD as a problem. I think Hayes presented the distinction between that and Bujinkan budo well enough. The problem stems more from his continuing to present the appearance of a significant ongoing relationship with the Bujinkan and with Soke. Heck, I recall a private hotel-room discussion in California with Soke and Nagato sensei in July of '89 (private as in "just the three of us", after I'd passed the godan test the day before and become one of the first 20 American shidoshi) where Soke was talking about Hayes having "gone his own way" and making it clear he was not at all pleased. By my count, that was 23 years ago. Or looking at it another way, almost a quarter of a century. Hayes can't even feign "cultural ignorance" as a gaijin to say he didn't understand how his actions might be perceived by the Japanese: I'm sure Rumiko would have been quite able to set him straight had he been of a mind to listen.
Just read Don's blog. As is often the case, he's a bit melodramatic about Hayes and kind of exaggerates the case. In reality, there are a lot of similarities between what Hayes has done and a lot of other foreign "shihan," within the Bujinkan are teaching. In other words, Hayes and the majority of Western teachers of the Takamatsuden are pretty much the same, they are all peddling their version of Japanese martial arts that are very different from what the Japanese masters of said arts learned and teach to their own private students. The only big difference(and it is an important distinction) is that these other foreign teachers at least have an opportunity to fix that, Hayes does not. It all gets down to understanding, ability, and integrity. If you don't know something, do you spend the time and effort trying to learn it or do you settle for less and decide to teach what you don't know(or what little you do) when you know inside that it isn't the real deal? These arts aren't easy and they weren't taught historically in the manner that many are familiar with today. As such, it is only to be expected that such gaps in quality and understanding would evolve and lead to the issues that people have been debating with each other and online since the ninja boom began in the 80s. There's enough info out there that anyone wishing to learn about Hayes and how crappy he is can just :google: him and figure it out for themselves in a few minutes. However, he and his art cater to a constituency of wannabe mystic warrior types so perhaps it is best that such people have a place where they can live out their fantasies without having to face the reality that Hayes doesn't really have a clue about ninjutsu or the Takamatsuden and has no connection to Japan save his wife and her family.
I agree with what you are saying except the above part about people figuring it out for themselves in a few minutes. IMO it really depends on the person and a lot of factors (i.e. - age, life experience not just martial arts, etc.) There is almost too much information and a lot of it is conflicting depending on the source. Consider a teenager or young adult maybe reading one of his books and wanting to learn more about him and train. How far are they really going to dig? Or they don't know the right questions to ask. With that said, I would guess that a lot of people for that matter may not care and are perfectly happy with him and their training which is fine.
Dale Seago posted I'm a bit confused with this as Hayes was still in the Bujinkan in 1989 and travelling to Japan. Sure he did call what he did the shadows of Iga and latter the Kasumi An, but there were still attachments to the Bujinkan after this. As far as i'm aware Hayes was still visiting Japan Hombu Dojo in 2006, when certain westerners pointed out that Hayes was doing his own thing and the plaque was taken down. Now i'm not calling Dale a liar but i'm wondering why it took Hatsumi 17 years to take the plaque down?, and based on the fact that Hayes was still being graded until 1993 when he received his 10th dan why if he has gone his own way was Hatsumi still grading him?
I thought the blog post covered the dates issue? Quote: "...ordering his name being taken down after the last insult in 2006. Years before that, a friend of mine in Japan was there when it was announced in Hatsumi's personal training hall that Hayes and two other people were ex- students of his that he did not want people training with because they had not trained in a long time with him and were going their own path. One of the people continued to go his way and is Hatsumi seems fine with him cutting ties, another started trying to bridge the gap and amend his ways and is back in good graces but Hayes just told people that it was a false rumor spread by jealous rivals. He showed up twice after that, the first was just long enough to take some pictures of him training in Japan before the Japanese could really react in a social situation and the second he tried the same thing, but got 'asked' to come with the Japanese out of the view of others. There he was chewed out and told to not come back.* Everyone in Japan at the time was talking about it. Steve posted on his web site something that made it sound like the meeting was a friendly one and as a result, Hatsumi had enough and ordered his name taken down, later saying he did not care if people called it "hamon" (cast out of a tradition.)"
Just judge people by the quality of their movement It speaks for itself about someone's talent, connection to the source and character/intentions
sigh.... do you really want me to turn this into a grading thing again? Because everyone can talk all they want about how people leave and do their own thing when they are not ready, teaching what they think they have mastered when they really don't know squat, but if soke hadn't spent the last 20 yeards handing out godans like they were candy then they wouldn't be ABLE to start their own schools because they wouldn't have the credentials to pull it off. "This guy is teaching this art...should I train with him?" "Nope...he is crap" "What level is he?" "Godan" "Well isnt that the level he can teach?" "Yup" "And he can't teach?" "Nope...hasn't even gotten passed basic kame..." "So who gave him the authority to teach?" "The grandmaster." "Okkkkkaaaaaaaaaaaaaay... Well what about this guy teaching this art...says here he is 15th dan....should I train with HIM?" "Nope...he is crap" you see what I mean.
But they do get funky outfits in Toshindo: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OzzpwnRKLo"]Sentoshi's 8th Degree Black Belt Celebration - YouTube[/ame] Not so sure about some of the movement shown here. Or the shogun sitting on his podium. And the life history in pics is...errr... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7q4gzXry3c"]Ro-To Kata - YouTube[/ame] Now this roto (sdfr I think) does not seem like how I remember it. And why does Mr Hayes never complete a technique, instead just walking away... I also feel the posture of his is a bit "bum out", but maybe that's the camera angle?
Not sure this is about grades. More about the differences. But didn't Mr Hayes go his own way WAY before godan? I thought he started his godai stuff and shadows of iga after his first visit to soke. I'm not sure though.
I would like to address this one point real quickly. It's just something I read in Soke's book Ninpo: Wisdom for Life. Basically Soke is talking about how some of his students complained that people with insufficient knowledge are promoted to the top. Soke responds by saying that (as far as I understand it) some people forget their purpose and even though they might be capable of deceiving others, they cannot trick themselves. He goes on to say that for a warrior's art not only is gaining knowledge important, but also enduring knowledge, i.e. know when you should and should not use it. The students respond by expressing an understanding that Soke socialized with those people who are not "so prominent" in the that context. I probably butchered it and I apologize for that.
