Bujinkan Alive

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Nick Mandilas, Jul 7, 2006.

  1. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    In the last week or so we have adopted new training methods in our dojo.

    For the record, I have found myself posting less and less on ANY forum recently. The conversations seem to becoming more and more about arguments of who's style is better or who's style is more effective or who's style is more realistic.

    Having grown up in an environment surrounded by martial arts styles and different martial artists, I learnt to respect each art for its merits...so I just find I can't be bothered sifting through all the debates going on any more to try and find the diamond in the rough.

    I just don't feel the urge to contribute any more.

    Any way, back on track... our training has been modified after some discussion with my sense in the recent weeks/months. He had been planning to increase the resistance work and pressure testing we already do and it is quite clear how much we as students benefit from it.

    I just thought I would share it with you all. I know its not a post saying how much one art is better than an other but I'm hoping you would all read it and contribute to it just the same.

    Here is an example of one of our training classes with its structure in the last few weeks. (Dale & Shinbushi I know this will look familiar to you, but it was easier to just grab what I sent you and paste it here :) )

    We started off doing our normal drills etc, (ukemi, bojutsu, taijutsu kata) with added resistance to the kata as usual, BUT then half way through the class, all the white belts were instructed to go off to one side with a shodan to run through the Kihon Happo while the rest of us were to partner up.

    We then ran through some slow-sparring, in otherwords, totally unscripted fighting against your opponent but at the half speed, with contact (but not excessive contact) and as you became more comfortable with it, you could start bringing it up to 3/4 speed with a slight increase in contact...The deal was to resist any locks, throws, balance-takes etc where possible....

    Now I got to tell you, I liked the 1/2 speed thing as for some reason it made it harder than full speed (which is what I am used to) in which you still had to focus on technique...and then by 3/4 speed you could work on things with more pressure on and speed still a factor. I liked it because you still got to factor in what you could do with your taijutsu but with a very small time to think about it.

    Next came pressure testing. In the last few classes we have formed two lines with a person at the end of each line to turn and face the others. On my instructor's call the people in the line would attack you one at a time with any type of clinch/grab/shoot that came naturally to them (no punching in THIS exercise) and you had to disengage and throw/takedown each opponent with whatever came to mind. The idea was not to get caught up in a resisting battle, but to try and just "get clear".

    The moment you were successful with the take down, the next in line would attack, giving you zero recovery time. It really showed you what worked and what failed and when. Its like any illusions of what you could do just popped and dissipated. Even with this one class alone, I could really see where I would never try a musho dori for example and where a genseki seemed to come up easily, but also where it failed.

    Another test was the same drill, but this time the line of attackers coming at you with random-thrown punches and again having to deal with and getting clear with the attack before the next opponent closed the distance.

    In closing, I have to say I really enjoy this new training we have incorporated. Before we just did resistance training, in a way very similar to what people call the "I" method. But now we're doing full resistance drills, pressure test drills, grab and clinch drills, sparring to takedown and groundwork drills. The students love it. It generates a buzz. The people that have come to check out the class seem to love it too, judging by the look on the face of the guy that visited class last night.

    Looking back...it wasnt so hard to make the switch, it hasn't effected our taijutsu in any negative way, and it has only added to the class.

    I was hoping more people could add similar training methods they do in their classes (in detail) so that maybe others could see it and bounce ideas and concepts off eachother. This is my last ditched hope at a more constructive thread. Please if you don't train in taijutsu and you would like to add something constructive to this thread, then by all means, go for it. But if you plan to just post a negative, a mockery or a slur...then please, move on and look elsewhere or could the mods just delete it...

    All the best
    Nick
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2006
  2. whiteshadow711j

    whiteshadow711j Hiding in the Shadows

    Hey Rubber Tanto, sent you a PM..
     
  3. whiteshadow711j

    whiteshadow711j Hiding in the Shadows

    I really like these two training drills that you are using :D ,

    "Next came pressure testing. In the last few classes we have formed two lines with a person at the end of each line to turn and face the others. On my instructor's call the people in the line would attack you one at a time with any type of clinch/grab/shoot that came naturally to them (no punching in THIS exercise) and you had to disengage and throw/takedown each opponent with whatever came to mind. The idea was not to get caught up in a resisting battle, but to try and just "get clear".

    The moment you were successful with the take down, the next in line would attack, giving you zero recovery time. It really showed you what worked and what failed and when. Its like any illusions of what you could do just popped and dissipated. Even with this one class alone, I could really see where I would never try a musho dori for example and where a genseki seemed to come up easily, but also where it failed.

    Another test was the same drill, but this time the line of attackers coming at you with random-thrown punches and again having to deal with and getting clear with the attack before the next opponent closed the distance."
     
  4. Existence

    Existence Super Saiyajin :o

    excellent
     
  5. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Ahh, good to hear. Wish ya luck on becomming a REAL ninja :yeleyes:

    Heh, but here's some other thoughts for drills you might like to use.

    Slipping drill: Work the typical 45degree angle slip at half speed having the defender only parry or cover while moving. Have students wear 8-12oz gloves for added protection as the pressure and speed are increased.

    Ducking drill: Same thing using the "V" duck/slip wear you duck under a hook/haymaker and land some infighting blows or clinch. Again begin at nearly compliant speeds, move up to half speed, and then try to use it eventually in live sparring. Building the muscle memory for this is imperative in order to be able to use it.

    For an RBSD take on situational training, instead of LARPing scenarios out compliantly, try using a random attack drill. Have a student walk through the training area with the class on both sides, and have a particular student attack from a blindspot with the goal of taking the defender to the ground. Have the drill last until either the defender is GnPed or comes out on top with a finish.

    To make it more of a surprise attack have the student close their eyes and only open them when they feel attacked...and by feel I mean when they either hear someone come at them, or when they are actually grabbed/hit/tackled. Obviously basic protective gear is necessary for safety reasons, but I find this drill to be quite effective, and students seem to take to it.

    Good luck!
     
  6. Granto

    Granto Banned Banned

    Hm that statement seems like a bit of a slippery sloap.. cos the resistance done during uke/tori training is really dependant on the particular uke and tori and how they're feeling on the day.

    But I get what you mean, it just might give some people the wrong idea..

    Hopefully, with time (and this might even be happening already with the higher ups :D) there'll be resistance and aliveness in the pressure testing.. This might not be the way our instructor wants to go, but I think would definantly make it more interesting. Though introducing it like that, when the club hasn't had much aliveness training in general classes before could be pretty bad, oh well, kinda exciting not knowing what to expect class by class :)

    Grant.
     
  7. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    Ahhh.... the "V" duck/slip...

    Are you talking about the Gyokko Ryu "V" duck/slip or the Gikan Ryu "V" duck/slip (or perhaps the Kumogakure Ryu one???)?

    On second thought - you may want to stick to movement actually derived from our art...

    ...

    May your choices be good ones...
     
  8. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    I have had that type of training. But we changed it to an attack of some sort and not just a MMA style attempt at takedown, sometimes with weapons. And the goal was to survive the attack rather than "win." Getting to a certain place was considered getting away.

    We also did it out in open areas with hidden attackers. But we found it was not realistic. We know there was someone out there going to attack us. That is far different from the situation we face everyday. We went back and did the first drill, but this time we had a few times where there was no attackers. You never knew if there was going to be an attack or not. It is still not realistic to a total extent, but it is better than nothing I think.
     
  9. Existence

    Existence Super Saiyajin :o

    fair suggestions
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2006
  10. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    I think the reason you find the half speed stuff ot be harder is because you can't use strength to as great an extent and you have to perfect your technique. Plus you don't have the same energy from your attacker to use, this isn't ment to0 mean in a wishy washy "use your opponent strength against him" way but more tmeaning the other ghuy will be a lot more balanced and less likely to give away his balance.


    We do something pretty much identical to this called a V in foundation Jitsu (Obviously the lines meet at the point of the V and someone from there arttacks you).

    We also do grab circles where you stand in the middle of a circle and anyone can run out and grab you from in front or behind. This is adapted further by including weapons or striking but only allowing attacks to the front of the guy in the centre.
     
  11. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I have no idea what is or isn't in ninjutsu, I just happen to find it to be pretty much a preliminary movement when it comes to open hand combat and self defense. If you don't want to do it, then more power to ya. Though I can say from my perspective, if I was going to be that anal over whether a movement is in a technique or not, I sure as hell could find some kata movement that I can argue being the duck or slip.
     
  12. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    Sorry - my reply was a bit dry - so I will clarify a bit.

    The standard western Boxing version of the "V" duck and slip (bob and weave) - isn't found in the 9 schools (at least I haven't found any that resemble what I have seen taught in boxing clubs). The movement would contradict what is being taught in the rest of class - hence my somewhat dry reply.

    Hope that helps:
     
  13. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Ahh I see. So ninjutsu focuses more on blocking/countering the attacks rather than avoiding and moving?
     
  14. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    ...More akin to we try to keep our spine straight without bending at the waist...

    Avoiding and moving is our bag baby...

    We do a lot of slipping -- just not a lot of "V" duck / bobbing...

    Does that help?
     
  15. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    gotcha ;)
     
  16. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Yeah thats the problem every SD instructor faces. Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to replicate that adrenal panic and rush you get during a random assault. The only way I have found to do anything remotely close to that would be to have the student close their eyes and only open them after being attacked from any direction. It's not the same panic, but at least you are completely unprepared for the attack and you must deal with the situation AFTER being hit/tackled/grabbed.
     
  17. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Well, there are ways. But they are not suited for large groups and probably should not be talked about over the internet. Too many idiots willing to try something they have no clue about. And I do not think many Bujinkan dojos do it as well- especially not ones that are commercial.
     
  18. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Fight Club? ;)
     
  19. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    The first rule in Bujinkan is that nobody talks about Bujinkan...... ;)
     
  20. Existence

    Existence Super Saiyajin :o

    nah, blood sport. Its Kumite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     

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