bruce lee's view on karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by mani, Jun 27, 2003.

  1. BushidoUK

    BushidoUK Weston Martial Arts

    Was Bruce talking about Karate-Do or Karate-Jitsu?
    I mean we all recognise the differences between Judo and ju jitsu, aikido and aikijitsu, kendo and kenjitsu...

    *just trying to widen the scope of the debate*
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2005
  2. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I could be off target with this one, but I always get the impression that karate-jutsu is just another marketing term used by people wanting to make out that that their karate is "new improved" karate.

    Karate-do only removes 75% of stains on your wash, but karate-jutsu removes 99%! I've yet to see evidence that it's a discreet "different martial art" from karate-do in the way that jiu-jutsu is different from judo
  3. BushidoUK

    BushidoUK Weston Martial Arts

    lol new and improved... i like it.. might even use it! :)

    Im not so sure about your point though , I have trained in several karate dojos, and mostly it was just line work, very little partner work and light contact sparring, which was all well and good and suited all those practioners and I dont begrudge them or their styles or mock them.... usually their kihon techniques are of a very high standard, though I have trained with some real howlers.

    However I have also trained in others where its almost all partner work, not training just for competition and katas (Although I do believe katas a a fundamental and integral part of karate) where the techniques were definately more suited to self defence. Again some had fantastic technique where others were very poor

    I read once that A jitsu art is more about self protection, whereas a do art is more about self promotion and I beleive that sums it up quite succinctly.

    I believe there are karate jitsu dojos still out there, just there are 100 times more karate do dojos. I say dojo rather than style because even within a base style such as Shotokan you can see the difference in 'intent' in their training.

    btw the style I practice is named 'karate jitsu' because my instructor is a karate and ju jitsu instructor and taught both together under the karate umbrella. It made sense to call it that. The emphasis on training is self defence, with about 90% of the shodans and above being doormen or security staff (not myself) who use it to avoid trouble if they can or restrain any violent ones.
  4. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Now Bruce Lee did Wing Chun which is by no means "flowing" to begin with.

    So he's an oxymoron. :D
  5. JHughes

    JHughes New Member


    sorry to but in but I do karate. I know that Karate has changed so munch since then that you can not judge it by bruce lee's opinion.
  6. TheWaterMargins

    TheWaterMargins Valued Member

    Isn't that what GoKanRyu did????? lol:D
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2005
  7. Evil Betty

    Evil Betty Birdy, birdy birdy

    Uh, no it hasn't.
  8. jonmonk

    jonmonk New Member

    Precisely. The question surely is, with so many views of karate out there (and believe it or not there are plenty of people who knew / know more about karate than Bruce Lee) why on earth would anyone get so hung up about Bruce Lee's opinion?
  9. SouL

    SouL Valued Member

    i thk bruce was right to critise karate since it isnt the be all and end all of fighting as many thouhgt it was in his time. At the end of the day all ma have good points and bad points and simply training in one isnt enough if you want to be a complete fighter imo.

    Do karte for 30 yrs you get taken down by black belt gracie guy.... we all know what happens next.

    some guy was on about karate guys competing and then this makes them great fighters etc.. I dont agree torurnament fighting and real fighting are very different and being good in one doesnt nessariyl make u good in another. i know this doesnt apply to all.

    competing in tournaments obviously isnt real fighting, it comes close but to many rules, different attitude i.e respect for oppenent, different adrenalin effect, controlled environment and point in karate? sorry only going on what i saw in karte kid lol having points really helps seperate the two well

    Bruce on the otherhand had a few real fights throuhgout his life apparently and although a few are a bit dodgey some are well documented e.g his fights on the set of enter the dragon, he also sparred with the best of the karate world so i say he was in a good position to judge karate.

    I dont see the point in defending karte or attcking it by attcking other systems, theirs no need to put down other styles as all can be effective if used correctly. All you have to realise is eveything has its limits and their is no complete style of figthing, ( bruce lees intention when critisng karate)
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2005
  10. Dino

    Dino New Member

    Good post Soul, I'll take it one step further: All this pointing to BJJ as the be all and end all is getting old. Gracie getting attacked by 3 people at once, compared to your 30 year expert Karate practioner getting attacked by 3 people at money is on the Karate expert. And so should yours. That arm bars is gonna be pretty useless with two other guys stomping on his head while he's trying to keep it locked.

    If you go to the Self Defense sub forum here, you'll read countless real accounts of being attacked by more than one person at the same time.

    Anyone who thinks Karate (or Shotokan) is totally unpractical need only watch EXPERTS/Masters in action and that belief will vanish quickly.

    Anyway, my point is the same as many here. That there are most likely strengths and weaknesses with every martial art compared to others in certain situations. Just this constant knocking of Karate and Shotokan is tired (even if i'm biased). Seems like some forms of Kung-fu are more pretty than practical, but they don't recieve half the abuse that Karate does.

    Anyways. Hi i'm new nice to be here :) So i'm pretty much agreeing with you Soul. Just taking it even further.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2007
  11. armanox

    armanox Kick this Ginger...

    Dino - interesting that you should bring this up when I was discussing that with a person whom I train with earlier today. I made the comment that the karateka has the advantage against a grappler - unless the fight goes to the ground. Once the grappler gets the karateka down - the karateka is toast. On the same hand, I would not want to rely on grappling against multiple opponents - little hard to put multiple people on the ground at the same time. Every martial art has its place, each one can be stronger in its own area. I hate going against boxers - they punch faster then I can block repeatidly, but they lose out if they you go for the legs. I recently sparred a BJJ guy - until he managed to get inside he just took hits from me, which could have done damage had it been a fight. But once he got me to the ground, he anticipated every counter I attempted. Does that make me feel that my training in Shorin Ryu is inferior? No. It makes me feel as though I need to train harder, so that if I should be in a real 1-on-1 against a grappler I can take them out before they manage to get me to the ground.
  12. armanox

    armanox Kick this Ginger...

    I think I derailed somewhere in there......=(
  13. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    1. Wow this thread is old.

    2. One time a student of Bruce Lee said, "JKD is the best... better than karate" and Bruce replied by beating the crap out of the student using nothing but karate techniques. Showing it is the individual that matters.

    3. NO one thinks BJJ is the end all be all. BUT its training methods are great.

    I'd love to see a karate student get attacked by three people... hopefully none of the three will have ANY grappling experience... because if he's taken down he'd have no idea how to get up to his feet.

    I have several friends who have been jumped by 2-3 people. It has always gone to the ground. Not by their choice. My one friend who trains BJJ was jumped by 3 guys. He hit one guy, was tackled by the second when he went to hit the first guy. He quickly reversed the position so he wasn't on the bottom. He grabbed the guy by the hair and smashed his head on the ground was standing up WHEN the two other guys got to him... they ran into him and they all fell BACK to the ground.

    Thanks to his GREAT endurance from live training, ability to move on the ground, and fighting spirit developed from live training he was able to position himself on top of the other two where he hammer fisted them until they stopped moving.

    Now... you can say,"He must be lying" OR you can acknowledge that BJJ isn’t defenseless against multiple attackers. NOW, if you know HOW to defend takedowns you have a better chance at staying on your feet TO be able to use your Karate techniques.

    BUT MOST ANY BJJ book. IT WILL SAY, "BJJ IS FOR SINGLE UNARMED COMBAT." Why is that important? Because it's not making claims to be able to do anything more. Yet the training methods INCEDENTALLY develop other skills.

    If the karate student practices full contact fighting (With protective equiptment) with takedowns allowed THEN the karate student could have a good chance at defending against multiple attackers... but many schools do not do this.

    Personally, i see Self defense as hitting someone and running... the only time i can't run? is when i've been taken down to the ground... BJJ teaches you how to get to a TOP position... so you can stand up and RUN!

    Nothing but respect...

  14. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    That's an awesome attitude. AND i applaud you for working with grapplers. You will be better prepared than those who don't.
  15. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    Rereading Armanox's post makes me smile. :D I feel that's how karate (AND every other martial art) is supposed to be trained.

    Working with boxers and grapplers (and i hope other styles as well) will let you focus on applying the concept of exploiting different MA's weaknesses.

    Unless you Train with a good grappler you can NEVER know how hard it is to keep them from taking you down. Unless you train with a good boxer you can NEVER know fast, ACCURATE their punches can be, and how hard it can be to keep someone at exactly kick range to break them down (it can be done, it just needs to be practiced).

    Again, that simple post makes me respect karate and armanox specifically.

    ;) :D
  16. Jaae

    Jaae Valued Member

    It's only a waste of money if you are buying into the franchise ! now if you are running it.......................loadzamoney !!!

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  17. Dino

    Dino New Member

    Thank you for insight, you raise good points
  18. TheWaterMargins

    TheWaterMargins Valued Member

    How reliable Wikipedia is I've no idea but I was interested to read this at the bottom of the page about Shotokan:

    ps In terms of membership of MAP, I'm 2 years younger than this thread!!!!
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2007
  19. Nails

    Nails Valued Member

    Bruce Lee was a great martial artist full stop but Bruce Lee's opinion on other martial arts is irrelevant to us. If Bruce Lee made the same impact with Karate then there would be a lot of haters out there for Jeet Kune Do. He did say that he can't really teach anybody because they have to do what suits them, maybe Karate did not suit him.

    Everywhere you go now there is a Jeet Kune Do school cropping up with a grading syllabus, a part of martial arts that Bruce hated. It's strange how people remember and use Bruce's views to critisize other styles but forget his other views to exploit his 'Jeet Kune Do' in a manner that he deplored.

    His critisism could stem from the anti-japanese feeling of the chinese. At the end of the day a kick is a kick and a punch is a punch in any style its how you use it that counts and many people can't no matter how they train and no matter what the style.

    Nobody ever critises boxing and thats the most basic style that you can get, when you first learn to box you are taught to jab like you are playing a certainly would not fight like that, you adapt it.

    They may not have the education of Bruce in terms of martial art research but I am sure the Enoeda's, Brennen's and O'Niells of this world can more than hold their own in any situation despite how they were first taught in their respective style.
  20. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    The thread-o-mancers have been again, I see. It must be a popular caste these days. Can't think why. Maybe they gave them a better starting dexterity or something.

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