my take on "slapping the mat" is that it is not an attack , never attack the ground it is much bigger than you are. but rather it is that your arms slap the floor as you land. as such they increase the surface area of your body in contact with the floor and so distribute the force of contact over a wider area. the slight tension in the muscles required for the slap makes the body react more like single rubber block and less like damp spaghetti, more bounce, less splat. it also redirects the force of hitting the ground away from the spine / head and towards the shoulders and arms. better a broken shoulder than a fractured skull.
In our system for a backwards break fall you tuck your chin (avoids the back of the head hitting the floor) and pull your shoulders back to create a flat muscular surface to absorb the secondary impact (after the main force has been absorbed with the buttocks) That way your arms can be positioned anywhere (eg in a guard or preparing for a technical stand up) Hope that makes sense? Will try and video it at some point if not
Interesting both jinenkan and genbukan both train the mat slapping breakfalls as well as the kaiten style rolls. Has hatsumi ever said why he doesn't show it as often now? Do you ever see Roger do stand up randori? How does he breakfall? (Obviously that's aimed at being the best on the Tatami, not the best on concrete stairs)
Re posting arms, I've seen three people pop their collar bones, and one have multiple fractures from posting arms during judo/BJJ and Jujutsu. So it's likely I'm just a bit over focused on it, but yeash it's a horrible thing to happen.
Dunno if &/or why Jinenkan and Genbukan do the slapping thing By kaiten rolls do you mean jumping rolls? Then yes back in the day we'd train rolls jumping long distances (4/5 people lying down) and over obstacles (usually someone bending over at the waist) on hard floor. Also front break falls from a height and in multiple angles All on either hard wooden floors or the traditional tatami floor (which isn't very padded) Generally as things in Japan got busier exercises like these were not done in the main (busy) classes (probably for H&S reasons) and we just kept this kind of training going at our own dojo Roger does stand up randori all the time He teaches the standard BJJ / Judo break falls (which I think are fine on mats BTW), but in practice you rarely see a clean break fall in BJJ randori
Sorry I meant kaiten as "rolling" as opposed to the flat style breakfall. Personally I think they are more a way of allowing a higher volume of throws to be drilled on mats, you don't see it as much in randori, but that's normally because people don't really practice it as much. And it's much harder to do whilst getting thrown, especially with BJJ/wrestling style takedowns.
Ahh yes sorry Basic is as per my video (ie roll up onto your feet/knees) If you can’t complete the roll (eg he has hold of you) then the idea is to use the flat of your feet to take the momentum out The idea of slapping the bony protrusions on the side of your ankles into a hard floor makes me shudder
I'm struggling to think of a time I had the opportunity to roll out of a throw in sparring. The person throwing usually wants to control you on the ground, slam you into the floor, or make it easier for them to hit you. Being taken down at longer ranges with a staff or pole arm are the only situations I can remember getting to do a roll. Not HAOV in most places!
Sorry I think my post had missing words, Kaiten is just the roll, Solo practice you can roll for momentum then do the flat breakfall, or just do the roll, So in terms of drilling, if your doing high volume throwing drilling, if they throw you lightly, or help you with it you may be able to roll out of it, If they don't then you can just do the flat breakfall (front back or side flat that is). So think recieving a Sumi gaeshi, doing a forward roll from standing is essential, and if your repping the throwing part you'll be able to roll out and get thrown again quicker. That was my Badly made point. Ukemi isn't the same as a counter, it's how to receive the technique safely in training, not how to beat the technique. Then again learning counters is very worthwhile too. Flat style
I think you made your point fine, I wasn't saying that rolling was useless, just that in sparring it's not common to get the opportunity, unless control is lost and it's a scramble, as dunc mentioned (scramble in the common usage sense, I don't know if that's the correct use of the term in a grappling specific context).
I agree in standing grappling, when getting thrown unless I was significantly better then someone, then I wouldn't be trying to roll out of a throw. But in general grappling, I regularly use rolls to pass the guard, counter sweeps, take the back from etc all the time.
Yeah almost identical to my style/approach some differences in the way you stand/end the roll, but in essence the same - interesting
Interesting, I wonder how skateboarders do it as well? I imagine some of it depends on their prior training.
Practical breakfalls would be a great topic for a MAP meet if you ever get to teach at one again Dunc.
Quick thoughts and two questions Generally the standard gymnastics front roll isn't taught for ukemi because that's a lot of force into the spine, so we go shoulder to hip, crossing over the spine at the shoulder blades where the spine has the most muscular and skeletal protection. Is that how everyone else approaches this? Head postition and raising the shoulders, (I mostly do this with backwards rolls, especially when getting stacked passed, but really it should apply anytime, turtle rolls to guard for example) When rolling, I generally take my head off centre to the side (not all the way) and raise the shoulder upwards towards the head to make for a smoother rolling surface and protect my neck, does anyone else do this?
Yes I'd love to - strongly believe that break falling is the most useful skill we learn I speak as someone who had a scooter in my youth, rides a bike around London and seems to end up frequently snowboarding in very icy conditions ;-)