brazilian jiu jitsu or judo?

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Jordan, Nov 16, 2006.

  1. Jordan

    Jordan Valued Member

    Is bjj more like judo or japanese jiu jitsu? I took bjj for a while and besides the modifacations it seems like judo. Not to be mean or any thing but whats the difference? Count koma or Maeda was a judo student and according to the gracie way, he did little jiu jitsu.
  2. Atharel

    Atharel Errant

    It's mostly judo. Are you asking the difference between traditional ju-jutsu and judo, judo and BJJ, BJJ and traditional ju-jutsu, or what?
  3. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Hmmm... I've found that BJJ doesn't actually have the much in common with Judo. In my experience - Judoka's generally don't have much of a ground game... BJJ on the other hand is all about the ground game. From what I can see... much of that comes from the narrow rule set in Judo the sport.

    In competitions guys coming from Judo tend to rely on throws but many don't see to have a very well thought out game-plan for the ground.

    Does that mean that BJJ is more similar to JJJ? I dunno... it's pretty hard for us to find JJJ here... from what little I know of it... there is a bigger focus on strikes and kicks - as well as standing locks.

    Interesing topic.
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Can you back this one up? :confused:

    Can you post a list of the number of techniques in BJJ that are derived from Judo techniques? :confused:

    If BJJ is mostly based on Judo - why are the two so radically different on the mat? One relying primarily on throws :confused: :confused: and one relying primarily on groundwork and transition and submission?!
  5. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    BJJ tends to have more refined groundwork than judo, but they are not radically different.

    Guillotine chokes, leglocks, spinal locks, bodyscissors, and jumping guard are illegal in judo competitions. Also, there are some elaborate sweeps and submissions (gogoplata, for example) that I've never seen pulled off in judo. But most of BJJ's throws/takedowns, positions, sweeps, guard passes, chokes, and armbars do come from judo. The two really have a lot in common. The biggest difference is that judo emphasizes throws more and BJJ emphasizes submissions more.

    I don't know of any comprehensive lists of BJJ moves that were judo moves first, but off the top of my head...

    Pretty much any throw
    Full mount (tate shiho gatame)
    Side mount (yoko shiho gatame)
    Scarf hold (kesa gatame)
    North-south (kame shiho gatame)
    Back mount (We usually don't call it anything, but I think there is a name...)
    Side choke/arm triangle (kata gatame)
    Regular armbar (ude hishigi juji gatame)
    Keylock (ude garami)
    Bicep-slicer (sees very little use in judo--I love it)
    Other armbars I don't know the BJJ names for (waki gatame/ude gatame/hiza gatame, etc.)
    Triangle (sankaku jime)
    Omoplata (either sankaku garami or ude garami, depending on who you ask)
    Rear naked choke (hadaka jime)
    Ezequiel choke (sode guruma jime)
    A bunch of other gi chokes I don't know the BJJ names for (okuri eri jime/nami juji jime/gyaku juji jime/whatever--I don't really use gi chokes much)
    Most of the guard passes I've seen in BJJ, but I don't know the names (on the ground)
    Probably all of the basic open guard sweeps
    Turnovers (important in judo to overcome a stalling opponent who is turtled up underneath you)
  6. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    My only experience with traditional Japanese Jujutsu is with Aikijujutsu, which is very, very different from Judo and BJJ.
    BJJ is essentially Judo with a much greater emphasis on groundfighting. The same types of techniques, just with much more sophisticated groundwork and much less sophisticated standup than judo. Also, BJJ draws some influences from Freestyle wrestling, and tends to emphasize shooting for the legs much more than in judo.
  7. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Fascinating. I'd have never thought the connection was so strong. I stand corrected. I guess there is more too it than meets the eye. I was going by what I'd seen in competitions where to my eye it seemed that most of the Judo guys had very little ground game. Maybe that was just down to the competitors in that particular competition... the 2006 Copa De Hong Kong.

    That's a great list for me to start with... thanks for taking the time to post it.
  8. Freyr

    Freyr Valued Member

    You're right, most competitive judoka probably don't have anything close to the ground game of equivalent BJJ competitors - but the reason has little to do with the content of the art.

    In judo competition, a win is most easily (or simply) achieved by an ippon from tachi-waza (throwing your opponent so that he lands more or less on his back).

    There are lots of restrictions on newaza (ground work) in judo competition, as I understand if work to a submission is not accomplished swiftly and very cleanly the ref will stand the match up (which often happens after a few seconds). Also the ability to win by pin in judo somewhat changes the focus. Not to mention all the banned submission techniques in Judo competition.

    The consequence? Competitive judo clubs will probably emphasize tachi-waza a great deal more than newaza.

    In BJJ competition, however, as far as I know the only way to win is via submission (?), so of course competitors will have excellent newaza, and clubs with any competitive emphasis will probaby neglect tachi-waza in exchange newaza training. has a fairly complete list of techniques that demonstrates the scope of the art fairly accurately if you're interested.
  9. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Freyr, thanks for that.
    Yeah this is what I've come to understand - that most of the difference between the two comes down to primarily the traing for the rule-set that they compete under most.

    An example would be in our last competition we had a Judo guy that would go prone with his arms in and face down on the mat. It made for an incredibly boring bout (several of them) - our coach said that he was most likely thinking in terms of Judo comps where after a certain amount of time (seconds I guess) he would have been stood up again. Obviously under BJJ rules - the ref wasn't going to stand him up.
  10. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Where I was training (BJJ... I've stopped for while at the moment) someone training for or on the British Olympic Judo team was sent by his instrictor to train in BJJ to improve his ground game which is interesting.

    He started to pick things up pretty quickly as he was obviously experience in grappling but still it interesting as it implies Judo can only supply so much grappling before someone needs to actually focus in it with something like BJJ.

    As for thowing, we spar from our needs, but there is a seperate 'takedowns' class for BJJ and MMA.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2006
  11. Tomas_Drgon

    Tomas_Drgon Valued Member

  12. Devildog2930

    Devildog2930 Teneo vestri ego.

    Hi guys! I don't know if any of you have checked out my thread on the Judo section but for those of you who haven't check this out. [ame=""]Judo Newaza Grappling International Fights - YouTube[/ame]
    It pretty much shows that the Myth that Judo guys cannot fight on the ground is rubbish.
  13. Tomas_Drgon

    Tomas_Drgon Valued Member

    While that is a good video, it is a compilation of spectacular moments. In reality there is a lot of stalling, turtling and inactivity in judo newaza. It is all driven by the rules. There are people that are good at throws and can get away with little newaza. It is difficult to say whether this is a rule or not.
    As I said before, if you have the time and the money, train both.

  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Renzo Gracie states that Judo (kodokan) took it's groundwork from a smaller ryu of Ju-Jitsu named "Fusen Ryu".

    The Kodokan were great at the throws, but had problems - and a reputed loss - against the Fusen Ryu representatives who just dropped to the ground (or "jumped to guard") and finished with submissions. This effectively negated the kodokan approach of throw 'em down hard.

    As the Kodokan was the more established (and already a national style) when the two cross-trained it was a natural evolution for the Fusen Ryu to be absorbed by the Kodokan.

    Maeda - who taught the Gracies - was reputed/believed to have a strong Fusen Ryu background. What he taught was then developed and refined over the years by the Gracies into BJJ, which would account for the difference in newaza.
  15. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    Try both then train at the club you like the best. :)
  16. firecoins

    firecoins Armchair General

    It has to do with Judo's narrow competition rules but Judo techniques were the basis for BJJ.
  17. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    I've been doing JJJ and it's been a good mix of throwing, ground and standing locks. It really depends on the school.
  18. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    The only real problem with Judo is the damn ten second rule, the lack of leg locks isn't a great thing but it's hardly crippling in Judo competition, it's just the problem that all people need to do is stall for 10 seconds and they win the fight, it's a real pain in the neck because my club trains 50:50 stand up and ground work.

    It means that unless you land in a pin you have about 10 seconds to either pass the guard or sweep the guyor sub the guy in the guard, if the other guy feels he's in trouble and turtles you have 10 seconds to turn hiom over or the fight gets stood up again, this means that if you are good on the ground you tend to have to work really really facst to capitalise on it and if your working fast you can make mistakes even a less skilled opponent can pick up on.

    The other major issue I have with Judo is the implementation of them, they seem to stand you up even faster than the ten second limit if you'r unlucky :bang:
  19. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Judo ground game is all about position over submission. Can't remember the last time I was tapped at Judo. The groundgame is BJJ's entire world, so naturally they will be superior on the ground. Judo holddowns are murder to get ot of though. I have about 9-10 months Judo experience (been a year now but was out for 3 months with an injury) and about 6 months BJJ. Only get to Judo once a week though, but I have a no gi wrestling class during the week which I practice my judo throws at.

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