Books on internal part of the (Yang) Taijiquan???

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by oldyangtaiji, Jul 3, 2006.

  1. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    There are many good books on the Taijiquan form and its bio-mechanics (external part), but very few about its internal energy (internal part).

    Some of (the best) books on this topic (in my opinion) are:
    - Cheng Tzu's Thirteen Treatises on T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Cheng Man Ching
    - T'ai Chi Classics, Waysun Liao
    - Tai Chi Chi Kung: The Inner Structure of Tai Chi, Mantak Chia
    - Combat Techniques of Tai Ji, Xing Yi, and Ba Gua, Lu Shengli

    Are there any others good (or maybe better) books on this topic?
  2. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    First-off, you won't be able to learn internal power from reading a book - you'll need to find someone who knows how to do it to teach you.
    Books are only useful as a support and reference for people already learning Taiji ime
    On the other hand, a good book about Yang style internal aspects is "Tai Chi Touchstones, Yang Family Secret Transmissions" by Douglas Wile
    Good Luck and Happy Training
  3. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Good book, although your head will explode if you are a chen guy when you read the first chapter or two.
  4. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    I agree that the books can be used only to support and reference and not as a primary source. However, have a good book about the subject helps.
  5. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    We shall have to post a copy to Onyomi to test your hypothesis Dr Brido.... :D
  6. Sandus

    Sandus Moved Himself On

    Yang Jwing-Ming has a lot of books in print about the internal aspects, but they contain lots of personal speculation and opinion.
  7. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    I'm always willing to accept free books, even heretical ones. :D
  8. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Found this free e-book on Yi Chuan Zhan Zhuang practices. Kind of internal.. actually I’m lying I have not even read it.. let me know if its good .. (bottom right corner)

    Personally the way I see internal training, (not including structure, alignment, etc) in Tai Chi is as follows… very brief..

    1) Learn to use your Yi.
    2) Learn to lead Chi with Yi.
    3) Learn to absorb Chi in to the Dantien.
    4) Learn to lead Chi to all parts of your body.
    5) Keep training diligently until the Yi-Chi leading process becomes habitual and can be done with will alone.
    6) Learn to convert essence in to Chi.
    7) Using essence-Chi fill the eight extraordinary vessels in the Microcosmic orbit.
    8) Keep practicing until all the vessels are filled and overflow.
    9) And then… and then… ahhh… I don’t know..

    Some of the stages above can be mixed and matched, some cant.. I guess.. There are various practices that produce the same results, wei dan and nei dan. Also Bruce Kumar Frantzis goes on about using a different method as opposed to working with the microcosmic orbit, he talks about the central energy channel etc.. but I don’t really know much about that.. But anyway, this stuff is not best learnt from a book, unless you like padded rooms. :D
  9. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Interesting pov and post Inthespirit... I've downloaded the yiquan book to read later - funny I was looking for some yiquan material to play with and you posted that - hurrah for Tao and synchronicity eh? :D

    I've never really approached Taiji internal training with a fixed system tbh and I certainly haven't mastered it yet lol (perhaps that's why!! :D )

    I would say - (in no particular order other than 'sung' first and in no way intended as a comprehensive 'system' and again taking good form and structure as "given"):
    First learn to relax, become sung.
    Learn to be 'present' within your softness.
    Learn to focus the mind in 'relaxed awareness' yin/receptive
    Learn to focus the mind with 'intent' yang/penetrating
    Learn to distinguish solid and empty in terms of li, yi and qi.
    Remember that everything depends on being sung.
    Learn to 'listen' to energy within yourself in all shapes and forms
    Learn to 'listen' to the energy and intentions of others in all shapes and forms
    Learn to stick, adhere, listen, follow and lead another's energy
    Learn to 'issue' power, learn when to do this and when to yield (timing and sensitivity)
    Learn to express the eight energies of Taiji and the five directions in terms of energy and intent. Learn to change easily from one to another until they form a seamless whole. Learn to flow instinctively with all the above...
    Learn to do all the above at, slow, medium and fast paces and increasing levels of pressure
    Learn to do all of the above in all aspects of form and partner work, eventually transfering the internal skills to weapons and full contact free fighting - this will take much longer than most people are prepared to wait for - hence the modern variants and deviations from these methodologies: impatience - fair enough imo, but this is the way I'm going :cool:
    PS been in a padded room once or twice - quite cosy actually.... lol :rolleyes: ;)
  10. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    That’s interesting TJB. The stuff you posted IMO is more applicable to Tai Chi compared to what I posted. However my first teacher always use to say “Health First”, and the stuff I posted is more or less his methodology for developing health. As a side effect of developing health through the various Chi Gung exercises, one also develops the Yi, Chi and meridian attributes thought by some to be required for Tai Chi, though I guess through a more unorthodox path. That is not to say that other Tai Chi methods don’t provide “health”, Yi, Chi, meridian results. But I guess my teacher thought that his way was better. The stuff you mentioned was only taught by my teacher after one was competent in the Chi Gung I mentioned.

    Consequently, like my first teacher, I am of the opinion that it is beneficial to have extensive Chi Gung experience before beginning Tai Chi. However, my perspective on this is narrowed as I cannot experience its opposite, i.e. whats done is done.

    But I guess that’s the thing about this art nowadays, its very multi faceted. I guess at the end its best to find what works for you. For example, things like a spinal wave in essence is the same thing as microcosmic circulation, except one uses purely the mind and the other mostly body, but I am sure that with enough practice the two will more or less become one. Anyway, gonna stop pretending I know what I am talking about now. :D

    I have recently become interested in Yi Chuan training methodology. I have heard that the founder removed the Chi framework from it and implemented a different one. Anyone know of any books that explain the Yi Chuan method of internal development? :confused:

    Hmmm.. a thought has come to mind, perhaps the info I seek is in that e-book.. dang, now I.m gonna have to read it.. :D
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2006
  11. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Good Taiji is qigong ime/o (but understanding that may require extensive qigong practice first paradoxically!)
    Alex Kozma said something interesting about this the first time I spoke to him. He said: "The healing aspect of Taiji derives from the martial aspect, not the other way round" Very different view to most Taiji teachers I've met. I have to say, with a little more experience now I agree with him... Develop correct internal skill with your taiji and your health will sort too as a side-effect :)
    But I do see what you mean about 'what's done is done' as I came from a largely health-oriented Taiji beginning. BUT my teacher said from the start if you do your Taijiquan right you don't need seperate qigong, so I only recently took up qigong practice as an extra aspect and to teach others.
    I originally did 'internal qigong' rather than physical movements - neigong I suspect - but my teacher just called it 'internal work'. It consisted largely of moving energy around the body, rolling and rotating the dantian, working muscles deep in the body and bouts of celibacy and 'jing transmutation' - we also did large amounts of meditation and certain types of yoga and healing techniques. I did this on and off for around ten years while learning the long form. After 14 years I started to seek out new teachers and knowledge of qigong as a separate system - I now practise heaven-earth-man qigong daily as well as my form. I reckon internal MA energy work is best learnt by partner work tho tbh as under pressure is very different to just solo development ime/o
    Peace and Happy Training always
  12. hitori1

    hitori1 New Member

    wright you are! Yang Jwing-Ming was greatly criticised for his approach to some aspects of tai-chi. he tried to introduce certain features and over did it. so his ideas were denounced by a good deal of 'masters'.
    still, he seems to be doing quite well as a tai-chi authority, despite what some think about his ways.
  13. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    My favourite book on this subject is the book of Cheng Man Ching. It is easy to read and the things are clearly presented.
    However no book on this subject completely satisfy me :-( Every book (that I found) has a lack of informations.

    The free e-book from Andrzej Kalisz is very good :) A lot of very useful informations for free ;-) Yiquan internal training (like Zhan Zhuang) is very useful in easy to learn.
  14. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Good pointers in any of the books mentioned so far... but no in-depth juice imo :cool:

    Just practise your boxing every day - solo, fast, slow, partners, on bags, on hard objects, whatever - apply the principles, stay on the path... then you'll 'get it' eventually imo.

    And then you'll realise two things: 1. Why you can't find 'it' in books and 2. That the information was there all the time, but you had to experience it

    Just practise, practise, practise :bang:

    How good do you have to be anyway....? ;)

  15. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    Practice is very important, but if you only practice the (external) form (i.e. body-mechanics) you will never learn the internal part! Both are important, but the internal part is mostly hidden (and is not teached openly).
    For this reason is also difficult to found more about it in the books.
  16. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    I learned about Qi and Jin generation from various TJQ masters, private lessons, seminars, from manuscripts, books, videotapes, and so on. All (useful) that I learned I incorporated in my TJQ practice.
    Different sources explain the same things in different ways. Also some methods are very simple and effective while others are very complicated and ineffective. No source that I experienced explained the »internal« part of TJQ enough completely, but I can make a complete knowledge about the internal part of TJQ only with combination of more sources.
    In my searching of a complete source (book) about the internal part of TJQ I didn't found yet souch book. Many books have very interesting explanations, but also they are incomplete.

    I began to write my own manuscript on the internal part of TJQ :) I will make my comments (and explanations) on the more important Taijiquan principles and Classics quotes. No book more needed ;-)

    P.S.: Today I received the book Taijiquan Wuwei: A Natural Process by Kee-Jin Wee (<-Huang Sheng-Shyan <- Cheng Man Ching <- Yang Cheng Fu] and it is one of the best (if not the best) book about the internal part of TJQ. I highly recommend it (temporaly the english version is out of print)!
  17. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    In this year I readed two very good books on this subject:
    - Taijiquan Wuwei: A Natural Process by Kee-Jin Wee
    - Taijiquan: Through the Western Gate by Rick Barrett

    Now I decided to buy:
    - Classical Northern Wu Style Tai Ji Quan: The Fighting Art of the Manchurian Palace Guard by Tina Chunna Zhang and Frank Allen
    - Chi: How to Feel Your Life Energy by Waysun Liao
    - Taijiquan: The Art Of Nurturing, The Science Of Power by Yang Yang
    I heard that these books are very good and many recommend them. Any comment on these books or others recommendations?
  18. tccstudent

    tccstudent Valued Member

    thanks old Yang, I will look into getting that book. It's such a shame that there is so much misinformation and half-ass teachers out there today, any new information is much appreciated.
  19. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I'm actually going to resist the temptation to make a facile comment like "you could learn a lot from "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz" book," and suggest you could try The T'ai Chi Boxing Chronicle (U.S Amazon link) which details a branch of Yang style that is reputed to be from Yang Banhou. There are some interesting diagrams that attempt to show something of the shapes, directions and characteristics of the eight methods. It is quite a "deep" book and more esoteric than I like, but I'm sure there is stuff there that is useful.
  20. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    jkzorya - I already have the book The T'ai Chi Boxing Chronicle. It is a very good book but is also many times unclear and "esoteric". There are better books around.

    tccstudent - The books "Taijiquan Wuwei" and "Through the Western Gate" are great books and I can only highly recommend them! The first is more about the Jin usage and practice, the second about the theory and science behind the Jin.

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