Bone hardness

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by G.Razvan, Apr 27, 2011.

  1. G.Razvan

    G.Razvan Valued Member

    Hello, Ok. Seeing a lot of documentaries of martial arts and also seeing these things at the TKD classes I decided to emphasise on it too.
    It's about bone hardness. I know that it can be reached practicaly hitting yourself. I saw this technique at the Shaolin and Wing Chun practitioneers too. I think it is good to do not break or hurt your bones.
    I tried to hit hard materials like concrete, wood but I thought a little and I decided firstly to study. In the videos I saw this technique is started by hitting with a sand bag.

    Do you think this really helps? How I should do it? How amny times?

    Thank you.
     
  2. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I wouldn't do much more than knuckle push ups personally. Between that and using a heavy bag I think you'll get all you need.

    Mitch
     
  3. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Usually hitting hard things damages you more than it strengthens you. Breaking your bones may make them grow back stronger, but you then have to deal with the unsightly and potentially limiting bone growth.

    Also, I am very impressed that Mitch didn't turn up on this thread to make a 'bone hardness' joke
     
  4. Lorelei

    Lorelei Valued Member

    Too early in the day? Maybe he's still warming up....... :)
     
  5. TKDDragon

    TKDDragon Valued Member

    Just curious, what kind of hardening drills have you seen done in TKD classes beyond knuckle pushups?
     
  6. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    Increase resistance, not 'hardness'.
    Punching hard objects will undoubtably make you feel less pain (dead nerves and scar tissue don't transfer pain very well), in the short term, but will completely destroy your joints in the long term.
     
  7. G.Razvan

    G.Razvan Valued Member

    Yes, thank you, I forgot to mention that I reached a level of doing pushups on concrete that I dont feel any pain. My fists bones are really big :p
    Ok. So. In the TKD classes we usually hit our partners in the vest part. Just this. Can you recommend any other exercises for me especially for TKD?

    Thank you!
     
  8. osu,


    Don't TKD guys wear gloves, shin & instep protections?
    Why spend time hardening protected body parts?

    Knuckle push ups are great.

    Other than that, if you are over 16-18 years old, you could look into other hardening methods:
    - Forearms can be slammed against a partner's
    - hands driven through a bamboo or rattan bundle
    - Stone hitting with all the faces of the hand & wrist (go easy at first)
    - tree hitting with hands, forearms, elbows & shins
    - gravel bag hitting with your shins
    - marble bags also for your shins
    - hit the bottom of the heavy bag with your shins.
    - makiwara (although it is not the purpose, it will harden your knuckles)
    - Kung fu wooden dummy for many body parts
    - iron palm techniques: hitting a compact small sandbag fitth fists and palms and uraken; hitting a stone bag with the palm...
    - spear hands into a bucket of peas, or a bucket of hot gravel...
    etc...

    As a rule, go slow and easy, take your time, there is no way to rush the necessary body adaptations.


    OsU!
     
  9. TKDDragon

    TKDDragon Valued Member

    Other than some of the bolded items above I have heard of many of the listed techniques. good list fred.
    I'll reemphasize the above:
    "As a rule, go slow and easy, take your time, there is no way to rush the necessary body adaptations."
    There are no quick fixes for this.
     
  10. Osu,

    I see, I did not know that, thank you!
    One thing is sure, and I'll emphasize it: you CANNOT HARDEN THE INSTEP!
    There are a whole lot of bones, tendons, ligaments, articulations, and blood vessels in there... Hitting a hard surface with the instep is A VERY BAD IDEA!

    Uh?
    No, no rotation that I am aware of... just plain brutal pain!

    Great question...
    My Sensei recommended to find a stone that was "calling me"... More precisely, he told me the story of his stones (no jokes please!) and they were calling him... So I took my time finding mine... I eventually found it on the side of a country road in the Huang Shan mountainous region... I would recommend a round stone that has been more or less polished by a stream of water for millenia ---- if your stone has a little give - is a bit unstable - so much the better. My stone is 10-12 inches in dia and has pretty much the shape of an uneven sphere; its fine surface is rather rough, but it doesn't have sharp angles.
    I have another stone that is more flat and has a finely polished surface, but it has sharper angles... I don't use it the same way.

    For hands conditioning, I use any tree that is over 5 inches in diameter, so I can use the whole surface of my hand.
    I prefer a smaller tree with some give for shin and forearms, or else, OUCH!

    No wrapping for stone or tree hitting, you must feel & get in contact with the earth... ;)
    (okay, I use long sweat pants to shin kick a tree...)

    Go easy folks, no sense hurting yourselves!


    Osu!
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2011
  11. TKDDragon

    TKDDragon Valued Member

    Thanks for the reply.
    I didn't even think that someone would try to harden the instep :eek: Thanks for clarifying to the readers.
    The Power Blocking Question was because we block with a last minute forearm rotation to aid in deflecting the strike rather than absorbing directly on the forearm.
    :topic:
    Do you generally try to block with the half of the forearm closest to the hand, Middle, or other end?
     
  12. Osu TKDDragon,


    Very welcome.

    This is an internet forum, I am sure someone has or will try to harden his/her instep, trust me! :D

    Yes, there is a rotation when we block Jodan uke (overhead forearm block) soto uke (outside to inside block) - there are no real rotation when we block uchi uke (inside to outside) or gedan barai (downward block)
    For hardening purposes, we do several "slams" that collide on the two bones of the forearm, the outside one (from the elbow to the outside of the hand) and the inside one (from the thumb to the elbow)... the latter is the most painful/delicate to do, because there are many tendons and soft tissue there.

    Blocks are meant to be done with the lower 1/3rd with the inner forearm and the lower 1/2 with the outer one...
    In kumite, you'll take what you are given though... :D


    osu!
     
  13. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I would be very careful about doing any kind of impact conditioning without proper instruction. The potential for injury by using incorrect technique or methods is very high otherwise. Knuckle push-ups, heavy bag work, and body conditioning with a partner is about all you will ever need. The more advanced impact conditioning and makiwara work should only be done under supervision.
     
  14. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    what kuma said. bone hardening requires a specific kind of impact and very controlled technique, and you're a white belt. i would HEAVILY recommend that you stick with whatever you do in class for at least a year before even thinking of doing body conditioning on your own.
     
  15. Jabby Mcgee

    Jabby Mcgee Valued Member

    I agree with this.

    In my opinion, far too much time can be spent on bone conditioning, and I would be very skeptical about the supposed results that many proponents claim. The idea of killing nerves to prevent pain is, in my opinion, quite ludicris. Nerves tell you when there is a problem - by deafening the responses you should receive from your nerves, you risk doing yourself an injury.

    A couple of other important things to bear in mind is that most people are completely unaware of their genetic makeup and physiology - this becomes problematic for bone conditioning, as you may well have an underlying disposition for arthritis or other osteo-conditions, which may be exacerbated by this kind of training.

    Although it has been suggested in some studies that regular conditioning can strengthen the bones, It should be remembered that doing regular conditioning against a forgiving surface such as a heavy bag and allowing the area to rest may result in small micro-fractures which repair and get stronger, just as weight lifting will cause a micro-tear in a muscle fibre which will grow back stronger. However, just as with weight lifting, overtraining the conditioning/hitting a surface too hard, can result in more serious fractures which will actually become weaker.

    On the subject of weight training, it has been suggested in several studies that weight lifting actually increases bone density.
     
  16. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    The main drawback of being inexperienced and engaging in impact conditioning is that it is far too easy to overtrain and it's usually way too much too soon. Impact conditioning is like an ultramarathon, not a sprint. It takes a LONG time to get up to an appreciable level, and many people inexperienced with it think "the more the better" and ultimately do far more harm than good in the long run to themselves. That's why I really don't advocate a lot of impact conditioning if you don't know what you're doing AND have proper instruction/supervision.
     
  17. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    bone hardening ≠ nerve deadening

    the former is a natural consequence of stress (by impact or by compression forces) on the internal porous area of the bones, whereas the latter is just plain silly, as one, you're freaking killing your nerves, and that is NOT good, and second, it concentrates the damage on the outer surface of the bone, which does absolutely jack squat for making it resistant to fracture, and may cause bone overgrowths or calcium deposits, which are prone to breaking (in fact the latter are, afaik, more brittle than bone).
     
  18. WaveForm

    WaveForm Valued Member

    I just want to point out that many schools using techniques like these don't use them to increase bone strength or damage nerves - they use them to get their students used to discomfort during fighting.

    If you are fighting an opponent and they kick you in the shin, groin, etc most people will flinch, recoil, or otherwise mess up. One benefit of a training program where students kick eachother in sensitive areas or practice other limb conditioning is that you learn how to ignore the pain when it matters. Regardless, you still feel it, and the techniques will still injure you if performed hard enough.

    If this sort of training is something that you are interested in, I would suggest finding a like-minded upper rank at your school. If you work the conditioning together, you are more likely to do it correctly, less likely to go too easy (or too hard) on yourself, and less likely to be injured.
     
  19. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    When I was beginning in martial arts, I had some conditioning. Through the decades, I started to wonder why. I could see that in those centuries past, when martial artists had to use their skills for survival and a profession. But in a modern society, wouldn't it be easier and practical to become more proficient with a practical weapon?
     
  20. Osu,


    To my knowledge, you cannot condition your groin... :D


    osu!
     

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