Black and Counter

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by waya, Sep 29, 2002.

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How do you block and counter strikes?

  1. One Motion

    3 vote(s)
    27.3%
  2. Seperate Motions

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Both depending on circumstances

    8 vote(s)
    72.7%
  4. Undecided

    1 vote(s)
    9.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    CKD I've got to agree with Mike on these principles, I'd rather be hitting somebody than have a hand in the guard position. Attack truly is the best form of defence. Its near impossible to throw a good punch while being hit, your disorientated and off balance.

    I would block/cover while avoiding even if it would appear unnecessary. Its insurance against not moving enough. It can knock them off balance, and you can feel for another attack coming in or go for a grabbing move.

    Even if there is no wait between your techniques, I can’t imagine how it would work against somebody capable of throwing a combination of a few fast punches boxing style.
     
  2. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Its interesting, you both say that its nearly impossible to throw a good punch while being hit. Yet isn't that pretty much what you're doing, throwing a punch while blocking?

    Ahem, our punches are very close to boxing style. If you watch boxers you'll notice that one hand is always in guard, close to their head, to ward off counters.
     
  3. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    And I would say the same to you

    I didn't imply that you were waiting between techniques, merely (as you have stated yourself) that the techniques that you describe are performed consecutively. Simultaneously must by definition be faster than consecutively.

    The example I gave (dealing with a round punch) clearly shows how the hip rotation is IN THE SAME DIRECTION for the block and the counter. So the hip rotations are most certainly not mutually exclusive. The other example (a straight punch) does not require a powerful block - it is (at least at the moment of contact) a soft glancing block.

    Well that is a strategy I certainly have used. But here's a concept that is found in a number of martial arts and can be well expressed in the context of Japanese sword arts: as the enemy attacks, step in and cut him down, while he is still fixated on his attack.

    If I'm taken by surprise then I will have little choice but to block/evade then counter. But if I am properly prepared for the assault then it is possible and more advantageous to simply 'cut the attacker' as he attacks.

    But really, I think we seem to be rehashing the same material. I doub't there's much point in taking it further.

    Mike
     
  4. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I don't recall saying that. If you check back through my posts I think you'll find that what I actually said was that its nearly impossible to throw a good punch when you are off-balance.

    You're right when you say we're talking about "throwing a punch while blocking", but that is distinctly different from 'throwing a punch while being hit'. The idea is that its the other fella who gets hit as he's throwing his punch! If you can unbalance him into the bargain then the chances of him throwing a further punch have been dramatically reduced.

    Mike
     
  5. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Sorry, the both there was a mistake. I'm sleepy, and I've had to think about physics all day.
     
  6. taesujutsu

    taesujutsu New Member

    Force X Speed= power.

    I have taught CKD students...the only thin I can say is that you really should be opened minded about other styles and techniques. The idea of always relying on hips for power, may or may not work in the street.

    TKD(some style of it), teaches the same thing. I spent years doing the ole block and punch routine. If you do it simultaneously, you can also have a great deal of power..but you must know how to do it.
    Don't knock until you have tried it. :)

    Bottomline, true power comes from within..not how powerful physically you are. This is a concept that is to some hard to understand..but then again, it does work.

    All Styles(or systems), have something good to offer...don't say it doesn't work just becuase it doesn't work for you. Don't close your mind...or you will always stay where you are at.

    Peace,
    Tae
     
  7. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    You have my sympathy. At least when I think about physics nowadays its cos I want to. Thank god no-one actually wants to test me on it!

    Mike
     
  8. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    F=ma, force is equal to mass times acceleration. When you throw your hips into a technique the mass that you are accelerating behind your punch is not merely your arm, it is the majority of your bodyweight as well. Around 70-80% of your power comes from your hips, this has been biomechanically tested and proven many times. This is why we perform techniques from the hip.
     
  9. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I always understood power was generated from the entire body. Starting from the feet and ending in the hand. The hips are just another element along with shoulders, waist, arms and legs. I can't imagine anywhere near 70-80% of power coming from hips alone!?

    As Mike said, theres many ways to generate power. The rotating motion is one, another being the forward motion.

    When I said its hard to hit while being punched, I meant actually being hit, not just having a punch thrown at you.

    So how would you deal with somebody throwing a combination of a few fast punches at you??
     
  10. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Here's another method. Throw your whole body forwards into the technique (even your rear leg). Think of hitting with your centre. Again F=ma. But this time you haven't just got the mass (m) of your hips and torso rotating, you've got the mass of your whole body projecting forwards into the technique. That's a lot of m and hence a lot of F. Like has been said by several people already, there is more than one way of generating power, or to get all 'Master Po' for a moment, more than one path to the top of the mountain.

    Mike
     
  11. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    I'll agree that throwing your whole body forwards will generate a lot of power. Of course, you'll be throwing your whole body forwards, but there you go.
     
  12. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    It doesn't mean your charging in like a lunatic, you could just be shifting the weight of your body forwards a few inches.

    I think movement and good footwork is vital to block and counter effectively. Either way, I prefer it to being a stationery fighter, which is how I was taught for a while.
     
  13. taesujutsu

    taesujutsu New Member

    I know exactly what it means. coming from both a TSD and TKD background...and holding rank in both.

    However, I don't agree....the F X S works better for me..as I said..you have to be open minded. I have seen many CKD Students and have taught quite a few. Which isn't hard considering where Choi Kwon do is. It is a good style..but then all style are good, and what works for one, may not work for another.

    I would rather use the speed, and move out of the way. :D

    Peace,
    Tae
     

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