Black and Counter

I have seen alot of systems vary in how they do this. Many (TKD, Karate, etc) teach it as two seperate motions. Others (JKD, Hapkido) teach it as one motion with both hands/feet. Personally I think using one motion is more economical, faster, and more effective because there's alot less time for your opponent to recover and counter themselves.

Any opinions?

Rob

 

It depends what you mean by one or two motions. If you mean as one technique (counter inside the block) then I can't really comment. If you mean counter and block simultaneously then you'll lose a lot of power, since the shift for the block is opposite to the one you should use for a technique. However if you mean shift block and then use that shift to counter instantly rather than returning to neutral and countering then yes, definitely.

I'll give an example of what I mean, and the way I'd normally do this. Taking a punch to the chest simply inwards block (shift to the rear) and as soon as you're clear of the technique counter with a backfist (shifting back, using the same arm). So probably you'd want to count it as one and a half techniques.

 

What if you don't shift with your block. Hapkido and what I have seen of JKD uses more of a deflection, just enough to take the strike offline while you strike back with a kick or the opposite hand.

Example of one Hapkido motion: Left hand punch coming in, move 45 degrees forward to your right, deflect the strike with your left forearm, kept even with your shoulder, strike with your right hand or counter with your left hand or elbow.

Rob

 

Ah, see ours is a deflection, and you shift to set yourself up for a counter and/or to put you further away from the technique as much as to strengthen the deflection. However when you get to senior levels you do start to perform 'wards' (thought they're never officially taught) which are similar. Usually though we always shift.

The counter after something like that would probably be the same as with the shift to be honest, though I have seen it done (and done it myself) where a punch is pushed slightly to one side while you shift forwards to throw an inwards punch.

 

I usually prefer that type of countering now, I used the one two setup before I started in Hapkido and found that most of what I did was hurt my arm, and get hit because my opponent had time to set themselves for another strike. Shifting isn't bad because it moves you out of the line of attack, but it does drop alot of power and make a counter slower.

Rob

 

If shifting is dropping power and slowing down your counter then you're not shifting in the same way we do I have to say. 70% of your power comes from your hips, which are the essential centre to a shift. A good shift also allows you to pick up a lot of speed on your techniques, as well as a hell of a lot of power.

 

What I have seen as shifting with a block, is to put your weight to the blocking side, then counter from the opposite which has been moved essectially to the rear. To me that takes too long. Now as I deflect, I shift my hips and shoulders into the strike, putting my body in a whip like motion behind the strike I am throwing, and using less force for my block.

 

Hmm.

I'll use inwards block followed by backfist as an example.

Move your front guard arm out slightly as you shift to the rear, then move it in a circular stirring motion as you complete the shift, and allow it to return to its natural position as you shift back.

Now throwing the backfist into the mix, as you shift back rather than returning the arm let the hand drop, throw the hip back past level (so that you're just past flush with your opponent) and raise your arm up to parallel with the floor as you throw the shoulder round, and finally the arm which should move to about three or four inches into the contact point before being allowed to drop away and settle back into guard.

 

Both, depends on the situation. The block and counter is a way of immediately putting your opponent on the back foot but isn't as powerfull as a block........ strike.

I normally use the block and counterstrike as a set-up for something else, a distraction basically.

Thanx

 

I can see the power behind that, but what about response speed?

Rob

 

You get a massive response speed. I'm not that much faster than the junior belts we teach (once they've got the hang of the techniques obviously, but that goes without saying), and while I can't really vouch for my own speed (obviously, I break the sound barrier with my punches, honest ) There should be a couple of people on the group who can say whether or not it works.

 

I have to agree with what FF said about setting up. I don't stop with one strike, if I am moving at my opponent I essentially run them down in a manner of speaking, joint low kicks and multiple hand strikes are best with that type of motion.

 

I can see it being effective, I might personally add a strike to the block with the same hand to do a bit more to take them off guard though.

Rob

 

Definitely, but technically block and counter would be one technique. If they're still standing after the counter then I'd keep going until one of us wasn't, or one of their friends tried to get involved, or they started to run for it.

 

Hi Rob,
I agree with you, to block and punch simultaneously is faster, and more economical. Both Wing Chun, and Tae Su Jutsu teaches this. However, the blocks are different than style where they block, then punch.

To use blocks in most systems wouldn't work because it cuts down on the power, or at least it seems that way.

At any rate, people from TKD, TSD, and the such would have to re learn how to block.

So I think it depends on the system and the openmindness of the system to try and at least check out the simultaneous block punch. As always, it is left up to the teacher, and either way, the techniques are still good..

Peace,
Tae

 

There are many different solutions to the whole problem of blocking and countering, and different ways of generating power depending on which solution you're using. Some solutions are:

1. Hit the attacker the very moment (or even before) their attack begins, thus destroying their attack before it has properly begun. To do this you must have controlled the maia (distance) between you and must have used a guard/posture that 'set you up' to be able to achieve this.

2. Block with one arm and strike with the other simultaneously. Depending on the attack and your relative positions you may or may not be able use the combined motion to generate even more power. There is no reason however, that doing both actions simultaneously should weaken your strike in any way. One advantage of this method is that you will strike the attacker while he is still moving forwards, thus adding his momentum to your strike making it more powerful.

3. Evade the strike without blocking and simultaneously counter-strike.

4. Block and strike with the same limb. There are both quick and slow (hence less efficient) ways of doing this.

5. Block with one arm then counter-strike with the other. This (and the slow ways of doing no. 4) have got to be the least effective. What's the attacker done after his first punch? Waiting for you to have your go? Maybe, but outside the dojo you'll most likely find he's still moving in with another strike with the other hand - which will probably arrive sooner or about the same time as your counter-strike, unless he's already knocked you off balance, in which case you won't even get the opportunity to counter-strike.

6. Block, unbalance-control, counter-strike (this can be done nearly simultaneously).

All of these can and do work but some are preferable to others and some are more suitable for certain situations than others. Whatever you use, you should strive to unbalance the attacker' mind and body at the earliest possible opportunity, thus denying him the opportunity to use any effective techniques.

Mike

 

Hi Mike,
I agree.

That is why I say that no matter the style there are always ways and techniques that work.

Goo post.

Peace,
Tae

 

Hello Tae,

How many forums is it now? Nice to have you onboard.

 

LOL,
Hi Melanie....I lost count.

Good to be here, looking forward to some good discussions.

Peace,
Tae

 

Surely block and punch by definition cuts down on the power, since block and punch require different rotations. It'll also leave you open, since both of your arms are in use and since they still have one to play with if they slip aside from your punch they've got a free shot. Sorry about the nitpicking, I'm just curious.