BJJ slamming vs wrestling slamming

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by roninmaster, Nov 30, 2014.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Well at the risk of being pedantic she was 11 when she first started and UFC had already happend by that point :)

    I love me some BJJ, but it is not panacea by any stretch. The law enforcement programm has some aspects to it that are nigh on suicidal because they have made the circumstances fit the art and not vice versa
  2. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think that is too cynical even for criticising the Gracies.
    Sure Ronda did Judo newaza before training with the Gracie's. And that's the point. BJJ is NOT "basically just Judo" (as clever as that may sound to say) in the same way that Judo isn't basically just Japanese Jujutsu.
    There is a paradigm shift in both arts that informs how they developed from their parent art.
    So that BJJ today has stuff, techniques, nuance and other factors that make it different to Judo.
    Judo newaza can be a bit all or nothing. If you are attacking you are attacking. If you are defending in many cases all that happens is the defender grabs their lapels, lays on their front and waits for the ref (that's doing a disservice to some of the great Judo grounfighters but there is a point there).
    As such there can be a lack of more detailed defensive ground work in an environment where groundwork is not time limited.
    No one, even the Gracie's, claim Ronda doesn't have great attacker newaza. She clearly does and they say as much all the time (and don't claim that comes from BJJ either).
    What they say they are helping her with is working from bad spots, getting comfortable in inferior positions. Defensive newaza basically.
    Making her already great newaza skills more MMA orientated should she find herself in a bad spot.
    That seems entirely reasonable to me knowing what I know of the BJJ and Judo approaches to groundwork and how much Helio (and Ryron and Rener) stress surviving on the ground as a priority.
    It just so happens no other women have been able to make her that uncomfortable on the ground that she's been able to showcase that side of things (working from guard, half guard, reversal, etc).

    And as mentioned she was 6-7 when the UFC started so she was in no way submitting people long before UFC 1.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2014
  3. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Right, this is getting ridiculous. Nobody in this thread is claiming BJJ has superiority over anything. Straw man.

    Kframe, if you don't like people pulling guard then don't let them, as soon as they jump you grab a leg and a lapel and let them fall on their butt, it counts as a takedown in your favour.

    @Combat Sport:

    The reason it isn't in BJJ is the same reason you can't punch in bjj; it's blunt force trauma designed to cause injury. When you don't hurt someone going down, it's not a slam, it's a takedown. When you do, it's called either spiking, slamming, or being a douche. It is an INTENT TO INJURE and thus is not safe.

    Also, you can find just about every technique you've ever seen on grappling described in immense detail on YouTube. Hardly "guarding secrets".
  4. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    my favorite guard opener is pretty much what you mention. and it is taught to us by the coach. i basically squat the opponent up after pinning an arm to his/her belly (i do this against very heavy guys even), but instead of slamming, just gently shake them off. it's a pretty effective guard opener i've found.

    on the str33t, yeah, i'd slam them. if for some reason i ended up in someone's closed guard with broken bottles around. :)
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Erm....but you can hip throw, uchimata, shoulder throw and all that?
    And if such a throw hurt the other guy you wouldn't be disqualified right?
    Or am I wrong about that? I'm sure I've seen Jacare through some dude totally **** over tit in BJJ.
    I don't think slamming is banned because of the intent to cause injury but because it makes it harder to work or pull guard. Which is fine by me. That's what BJJ encourages. It's a competition format.
  6. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    All of those are throws with intent to improve position. Unless you throw them on their head (which is spiking), then you have improved position and passed. You can land normally pretty hard without injury. DQ is at the refs discretion I think, if someone does get injured.

    Guard slam=no improvement in positional dominance or attempt to pass/submit. Aim is to injure (you've just read them say it). "Why can't I guard slam, I shouldn't be responsible for their safety if their legs are around me". Then what IS the point of guard slamming?! You're not going to pass or submit, SO WHAT ARE YOU DOING? That's right, you're trying to injure someone.
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The release the guard or get slammed - simple

    A submission is trying to injure someone n'est pas?
  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Well where does that end? "Open your guard or I'll punch you".

    A submission is applying pressure to cause injury. Slamming is blunt force trauma to cause injury.

    Like I've said before, I'm not against guard slamming in MMA or combat sambo where striking is allowed and knocking someone out is an option. It just shouldn't be allowed in pure grappling contests.
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It's a grappling move so the comparison to a punch is flawed.

    The only reason I can see for outlawing it is to favor guard players -slamming in wrestling is legal for instance
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    What about a o-uchi gari where you reap the leg from the inside but, a lot of the time, end up in guard as a result, even if the throw is successful?
    How would that be scored? As a takedown? What if it winded someone? Would that be a slam?

    To me there is a certain arbitrary nature to what is allowed in BJJ and that's fine. That's true of all comps.
  11. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    It's an attempt to take it to the ground. How much force would you say can generate with it? I don't think it looks too painful.
  12. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Right, please post a video of slamming in wrestling so i can get an idea of what you're talking about. If you can, show guard slamming in wrestling.
  13. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Takedown. For anyone who does bjj that's an obvious one too. The end position is irrelevant. Outside of children's divisions the effects of the slam aren't a problem either.

    I think there's being too much effort here to find a fancy reason slamming from guard is illegal when I'm sure the only real reason is it stops new people relying on it and hurting people by trying to be the Hulk instead of learning proper technique. Its a contrived rule to encourage a certain behaviour, that's all.
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Unlikely as guard is not a well used position as it is pretty much a pin

    As for slams? here you go

  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Not a lot of force. It's not a "big" throw but you could wind someone with it if it caught them wrong. It is odd you can do that but if the guy even slightly "jumps" or looks to pull guard it could very easily be called a slam (even if only a gentle one).

    You sir have slammed this thread into the mat. I'd say that's exactly right.
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Pretty much - I think it's silly, but it's in a ruleset so meh.....
  17. MaxSmith

    MaxSmith Valued Member

    I think what's problematic about this video in terms of the discussion is it demonstrates suplexes while we're talking about guard slams. No guard in wrestling to its never addressed.

    I think the no slam rule absolutely encourages guard play. If slams were allowed there would be a lot more stalling. The person in guard lifts for a slam, the person with guard releases, no we're back to neutral and no position has been advanced.

    The BJJ rules are implemented to push people to work their BJJ game. That's it, no hidden agenda.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2014
  18. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    With a good grip you can generate a lot of force if you bear down or if you slip/overcommit. You can easily wind someone if not hurt them more. It's not a big hitting move by any means but if done well it can hurt quite a bit if you don't land nicely or don't breakfall properly.
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I thn't :D

    oh come on that was pretty good......
  20. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    the interesting thing is that in a bjj competition, you can basically slam someone down in uchi mata (or other judo-type throw) with no issue.

Share This Page