BJJ meets Taijutsu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kikaku, Jun 30, 2006.

  1. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Last night I was invited to participate in a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu class. I took up the offer and headed down to their dojo for the 8pm start time, and paid the small rental fee for the Gi. I was really excited, since I wanted to experience the hype surrounding this art for myself, and see what the big deal was.

    I suited up, and we got down to business. We started the class by going over a small repertoire of ground lock techniques, which covered Triangle locks/Gi chokes/Arm bars and tactical positioning. I was very impressed by the concepts and effectiveness of the techniques, but at times I had questions/doubts about certain mounting/submissive positions, since it left the person in the dominant position, open to a slew of counter attacks. Granted a lot of the counter attacks could be/would be deemed "dirty", but then again all real confrontations are. But the person in the dominant position could afford to apply them no doubt, seeing how technically they were protected by the sporty/no strikes allowed rules.

    As it's been pointed out, these gentlemen are running on a completely different "operating system",which can afford them to fight the way they do. But I will point out that the instructor told me that there are a vast amount of techniques, and you should just take the ones you want.

    During the first two rounds of Randori, I quickly came to the conclusion that if you were playing by their rules then the majority of the time you would find yourself in a somewhat alien situation. By this I mean, I was caught straight off the bat in a mounted head lock. My first instinct was to grasp my ukes flesh on his mid-section, or give him a Shikan-ken to the ribs, but by playing by their rules I had to restrain myself, and find a "clean" way out of the situation. From this point it somewhat boiled down to a strength vs strength senario which had it's good and bad points IMO.

    For the 3rd round of Randori, I was determined to get a tap out :D
    After going at it for 4 minutes with this nice American chap, I managed to get him locked. I was on my back and he was laying of top of me, with his back to me, whilst I applied a Sankaku-jime, with my legs wrapped around him. Again this was an alien situation, seeing how at first, his chin was blocking my choke, and I wasn't allowed to fall back on pulling his hair, to aid getting my choke in. In the end I managed to straighten/stretch him out using my legs. Which gave me a window of opportunity to slip the choke in. Over all it worked and he tapped :)

    Overall I was very impressed, and I will be going back there again. There is a lot to be learnt. But I will state that in it's own right similar ideas and concepts in the class, in my opinion are ever present in Ninjutsu. For the whole class certain areas/principles were very reminiscent of Taijutsu. Again this boils down to the proverbial "It's there,If you know what you're looking for".
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2006
  2. koto_ryu

    koto_ryu Common sense is uncommon

    To assume that someone who only does a "sport" martial art (which I use the term loosely) can not fight outside of their set of rules is pure ignorance. How much talent does it really take to pull hair, gouge eyes, or bite? Consider the early UFCs, where the only rule was no eye gouging or fish-hooks. Even groin strikes were legal. Who still prevailed? The Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter. Who in fact used the hair of at least one of his opponents to gain control of him.

    If you need a good example of someone from a "sport art" playing outside the rules, look no further than to boxing. Mike Tyson snacking on Evander Holyfield's ear, illegal in the ring yet (gasp!) he still did it.
     
  3. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    *YAWN* I'm glad you had fun writing all that out, but at what point, do I point out that BJJ'ers can't fight outside the ring ? :rolleyes:
     
  4. koto_ryu

    koto_ryu Common sense is uncommon

    "But the person in the dominant position could afford to apply them no doubt, seeing how technically they were protected by the sporty/no strikes allowed rules."

    This quote seems to imply that they are entirely limited by a sports mindset. I'm sure you often practice eye gouging and groin shots on your ukes, your training must be so more realistic :rolleyes:

    And if you honestly think grappling is all strength, then how do you explain how a comparatively lean Royce Gracie managed to defeat opponents with upwards of a hundred pounds or more on him?
     
  5. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    My entire orignal post is based on the concept of training in a class room setting, I would have thought that was obvious :rolleyes:

    And yes in my dojo, eye gouges happen in the heat of the moment, generally when a point is being proven, from a proverbial "what if ?".


    I never said it's all about strength, I simply said it's situational and it can boil down to strength vs strength. So get of your high horse, and stop trying to put words in my mouth.
     
  6. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    I'm glad you were willing to step outside of your comfortable setting and try something new! That takes a lot of guts, and you certainly can only benefit from the experience.

    Not everyone who takes BJJ competes...and those that don't compete are more than welcome to take what they want from the system and make it fit whatever purpose they want it to.

    I knew Krav Maga guys that cross trained in BJJ PURELY to work on positioning in order to get to a ground and pound position.

    I knew Kung Fu guys that cross trained in BJJ with the sole purpose of getting comfortable on the ground and learning escapes to get back to their feet.

    Take what you want, and discard what doesn't appeal to you. I wouldn't recommend pulling hair, eye gouging, or hitting people during friendly rolling, though. Just like in taijutsu...you COULD clock someone with a boshi-ken then follow up with an eye gouge sunk up to your knuckles...but that isn't very nice, is it?

    The guys in BJJ train the way they do because "Dirty Grappling" is easy, relatively unskilled (little kids can bite and pull hair), and causes far too many injuries that could otherwise be avoided.

    Don't think for a minute that "Don't" means "Can't". During one particularly frustrating session with an instructor, I stuck my fingers in his throat to make some space. Because he was superior to me in positioning (and everything else), he started "Mean Grappling"...cross facing, driving elbows into my chest, AND sticking his own fingers into my throat.

    After a few minutes of that, he said, "Keep in mind that lacking respect for your partner gives them a free pass to disrespect you."

    Would you consider continuing to cross train there?
     
  7. koto_ryu

    koto_ryu Common sense is uncommon

    You rather pointedly explain how they are from a sports mindset, essentially trying to diminish the art itself. There are many times in my Bujinkan training where I could've said the same thing about "Ohh, since we only train in a dojo and don't routinely practice this or that, we must be limited." Did I? No, because to assume you're entirely limited by the rules you follow in the dojo is ignorance. You essentially made this out to get others to hop onto the BJJ-bashing bandwagon with you, saying "See? They have rules, therefore we train better!" It's extremely obvious in your post.

    Amazing that you aren't all strutting around with eye patches now from all the fierce eye gouging :rolleyes:

    It's only strength vs strength if the two have no idea what they're doing on the ground.

    I also think you might want to check your terms, as I seriously don't think you're choking out someone with a Sankaku-Jime when you're in the position you described.
     
  8. koto_ryu

    koto_ryu Common sense is uncommon

    Good post. The first time I started rolling with a BJJer, every time he went for a sub when I was in his guard I was stacking him. Not light either, really laying into him sometimes. A jerk thing to do, really, which he told me later on. You definitely want to train as effectively and efficiently as you can, not by bashing up all your sparring partners and giving each other serious injuries.
     
  9. koto_ryu

    koto_ryu Common sense is uncommon

    And for the record, I have never trained in BJJ officially myself. My ground game is solely wrestling and some Judo newaza.
     
  10. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    How is that trying to diminish the art ?? And how can you argue the fact that NO striking and NO dirty tactics deviates to a somewhat sports rules environment ? Granted, as I pointed out, this is in regards to a training in a class room situation.





    Can we say WRONG :rolleyes: I was in no way bashing BJJ in any way, shape or form. Nor was I trying to get people onto a "bashing bandwagon", I was simply pointing a valid observation out, from my own interpretation/opinion. Which in fact the BJJ instructor agreed with, to an extent.


    No you're just being childish. Obviously there is restraint, and control.




    How so ? a Sankaku-jime is a triangular strangle..Prove me wrong :rolleyes:
     
  11. koto_ryu

    koto_ryu Common sense is uncommon

    Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu does have striking. Although it is definitely not the most effective form of striking at all, they do possess them. As for "dirty tactics", did you suddenly start training in the martial arts and learn how to fight dirty? Kids on the playground can do that. What's really to stop their locks from becoming breaks, or for them holding their chokes long enough to knock you unconscious? A proper figure-four choke can put someone out in approximately 9 seconds. Unless you're literally stabbing them with a blade, there's not much you're going to be able to do.

    So, you decide to go visit this new school to get trained in a martial art, one you have no idea about, and feel that after one class you are experienced enough to begin criticizing aspects of its training? Egotistical and ignorant.

    So you readily admit that in your own dojo there are rules, yes? Rules you follow by and train with, correct? Yet somehow you will be able to fight in a serious encounter without rules, whereas in BJJ they won't be.

    "I was on my back and he was laying of top of me, with his back to me, whilst I applied a Sankaku-jime, with my legs wrapped around him."

    So he's in your guard but facing away from you, and you somehow have this choke on him?

    [​IMG]

    Do you even understand the mechanics of this choke and why that might prove a bit odd? Not to mention that position, which I can never recall seeing in any grappling matches that I've witnessed. Perhaps someone who's trained in BJJ for quite some time can answer that one better than me.
     
  12. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Of course not. But there are alot more complex aspects to "dirty tactics", than the "school yard" basics card which you're trying to pull. Being in the Bujinkan yourself, I would have thought you'd have seen and experienced this for yourself.



    I never said this wasn't possible, when it's blatantly obvious that your statement is true. My point being, that everything is situational, and there is always going to be a "what if" element, the "unknown".


    Now you're just getting desperate. I simply pointed out an aspect which even a non martial artist, could see. If I'm being mounted, and I'm in the right frame of mind/health to launch a counter attack, what's to stop me if my opponent has a large surface area of his body exposed to me, and I have a free hand in which to strike/apply a counter :rolleyes:

    Even the instructor agreed with me on this point. So how am I being ignorant and egotistical ? By the same token I could say that you sir are ignorant and egotistical, for inadvertently claiming that BJJ is "flawless". Which is basically what your argument is.


    Yes there are rules, but not the same sort of rules which you're thinking of.
    I'm thinking along the lines of common human decency, i.e I'm going to show restraint, and not permenatly damage my training partner, .Yes this sounds over the top, but I'm just getting my point across. But my point being that BJJ class rules are grounded along the lines of a "sports" concept. But like you say, the "street" is a different matter.


    Ok, now we've crossed wires. Perhaps BJJ/Judo terms and Ninjutsu terms vary, but from what I've learnt a Sankaku-jime is a "triangular" choke, yet there is no reason why one, can not be applied with either the hands or the legs.
     
  13. James L

    James L Valued Member

    I applaud your ability to embrace other training styles and methods, and not be close minded to "my style is the best". Sometimes you cross train and benefit from learning new martial skills, sometimes you cross train and it benefits you by boosting your confidence in your own art, and it is always good to "know thy enemy" regardless.

    Having said that, be aware that it very much sounds like you trained in sport bjj. Bjj does indeed have striking, and does indeed deal with striking in many, many ways at many schools. Bjj has its roots in testing itself in full contact, no rules events. It won decisively.

    Your comment:

    Is remarkably ignorant, if you intended it as it is written. I could have misread it.

    Believe me, a skilled bjj'er can indeed close the gap with you, take you down, pull your hair, pinch your skin, grab your throat, poke your eyes, strike you, etc. To think they cannot, because the sportive version of their art prohibits it, is silly. All it means is that they don't do those things in the sport versions of their art.

    Here are few quick vid finds from the net on bjj challenge matches (I just quickly googled). You will see opponent's going for eye gouges, bjj fighters striking, etc:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4484668185211770452&q=bjj+karate

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8137340106961077524&q=gracie+jiujitsu+kung+fu

    You mentioned being in a headlock, and your instincts where to grab flesh on the torso, or to punch the ribs. It is my experience that skin grabs are no where near as effective against an opponent determined to hurt you as they are in a calm, dojo setting. As to striking the ribs, you see people taking short range strikes to the ribs all the time in combative sports, and it doesn't always stop the opponent.

    Your strategies may work, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't just assume though because we train them in the Buj, and because sport grappling rules prevent them, that they would be successful for sure.

    I am a 3rd kyu in the Bujinkan, and I came from a grappling background in my younger years (wrestling and 1st kyu in Judo). I fully believe in BBT, but I have more respect for a skilled grappler than any other fighter I may face. Always remember that grapplers have the ability to apply EVERY "dirty trick" that we also apply in the Bujinkan. And they do on the street... often.

    Again, kudos to you for being open minded.
     
  14. James L

    James L Valued Member

    Sankaku is the choke pictured, with the legs around the neck and one arm. it is not always applied from the bottom, but that is the choke.

    This page has pictures or drawings of the most common chokes found in Japanese based arts, in the Shimewaza section:

    http://www.judoinfo.com/techdrw.htm

    Perhaps the choke you applied is listed there?

    Cheers,

    James
     
  15. koto_ryu

    koto_ryu Common sense is uncommon

    Virtually all of the "dirty tactics" are easily performed. It really does not take sophisticated training to grab a wad of flesh, snack on someone's meat, or try to push your thumbs through the back of their eyelids. It gets to the point where there is even an over-reliance of such tactics. I recall going to a seminar and being shown the best way to escape from a side headlock was attacking the eyes, stomping the foot, and trying to grasp the groin. Meanwhile, in Marine Corps boot camp I learned a simple yet effective manuver: one hand under the chin, one hand behind the knee, and scoop. Somehow this simple idea got overshadowed by the fact that every escape or counter needs dirty tactics. I'm sure the authorities will be very pleased when in a minor situation you've permanently maimed your attacker.

    I fail to see how that is getting desperate. Your motives behind the post are pretty clear. And if you have ever tried strikes from mount bottom, you'll see that there is little force behind them. Meanwhile, he can get much greater force in with his strikes and your head has a rather unforgiving surface behind it. Go for his eyes? Great way to extend your arm and set yourself up for an armbar. Inexperience may be an excuse for your foolishness, but please attempt to at least understand what you're criticizing before you hope to make any valid points.

    If I really thought BJJ was flawless, I would train in it. Seems like a rational thought. doesn't it? But didn't I mention that I actually don't train in BJJ? Curious. If I think it's so flawless, why am I not training in it?

    And did I not just mention one post ago that its stand-up left a little something to be desired? Or maybe you conveniently skipped that part :rolleyes:

    So you feel it doesn't show common human decency to loosen a submission hold when they feel their partner tapping, not attacking their eyes or groin when rolling, or avoiding a particular submission because your opponent may have a mild injury and you don't want to aggravate it further?

    So by allowing your partners to take ukemi in most techniques, letting go when they tap, and avoiding giving your partner any form of permanent damage, your training is somehow different?

    All dojos have rules to protect its students. It is inevitable. Whether sport or formal, traditional or modern. This is something you cannot get away from. If you were a brand-new student going into a dojo that trained with absolutely no rules, how long would it take until you were permanently injured and could no longer train there? Great for business.

    From that position, the legs is a bit far-fetched. The Bujinkan sankaku-jime however is just a rear naked choke. I thought you had some Judo training, you should've been able to understand what I meant.

    And even from that position he had a submission on you he could have used but chose not to. You said your legs were crossed around him, correct? I can't remember the name exactly, but by crossing his instep behind one of his knees he can apply a lot of painful pressure to you since you have your feet crossed. I've heard of it being pretty nasty to some people so I'm not sure if they still allow it in competition, but I've had it done to me once and it is not a fun feeling. It's very difficult to try to continue a choke when your Achilles tendon is almost snapping.
     
  16. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Kikaku,
    Good on you for going down and taking part in something outside of your comfort zone. Sounds like good fun. BJJ is always a bit of strange one for those who have never rolled before... but it doesn't take long to figure out how many of the techniques can work well with other arts.

    I didn't really get that you were slamming BJJ as MAP member Koto Ryu read into it. Overall the tone of your writing was rather even handed. Pretty much fair observations given where your coming from. I think if there were more people that put there money where there mouth is and went and trained in something new to them - there'd be a whole lot less BS on the forum.

    Congrats on your BJJ experience.
     
  17. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo


    Hi James,
    Koto-Ryu has basically taken what I stated way out of context, and has already turned it into another crusade/challenge :rolleyes: . My initial observation was that if an opponent is taking a tactical position on your body, which exposes part of their body, then obviously there is the possibility of counter, provided the other opponent isn't fully subdued. Is that point fair enough ?

    How so ? I was stating that BJJ'ers CAN in fact strike. Koto-ryu seemed to think, that I was insinuating otherwise.
     
  18. koto_ryu

    koto_ryu Common sense is uncommon

    Interesting that you say that they can strike now, when previously.....

    "How is that trying to diminish the art ?? And how can you argue the fact that NO striking and NO dirty tactics deviates to a somewhat sports rules environment ? Granted, as I pointed out, this is in regards to a training in a class room situation."

    If you go to a class on groundfighting specifically to learn submissions and counters, why are you expecting strikes and dirty tactics? If I go to a boxing gym, I'm there to learn how to punch, not criticize them for say having no defense against a low roundhouse kick or that their clinch opens them up for a Judo throw. Yes, they may not have struck in that ONE class that you went to. Does that mean they never strike at that particular place at all? How would you know? You're burning the bridge before you even started walking across it.
     
  19. James L

    James L Valued Member

    I am staying out of your debate!!!

    :)

    Well, to counter attack an opponent just sitting on you is one thing (i.e., under the mount). However, it is much more difficult and theoretical when that opponent is raining strikes down on you, smothering you, gouging your eyes, attempting to armbar any arms you stick out, etc. It is possible, as you say, but difficult in the real world.


    My comment was in reference to you saying this:

    I was COMPLETELY disagreeing with this, and making a case on why I think you are wrong in this statement.

    Again, good on ya for cross training. I think any martial artist benefits from an open mind.

    Cheers,

    James
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2006
  20. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Without using the "mount bottom" as the sole refference for the argument, I can in fact say that my arguement can be applied to various different submissive positions, when the other person is still "in the game" so to speak, with room and means to manoever a counter.. Granted I do agree with you on the fact that there is little power from a typical punch from a bottom mount position, yet being struck or pinched or having a pressure point manipulated doesn't require a wind up of the arm.

    That doesn't stop you from pea(nut)riding on other forums now does it ;)

    Inexperience may be an excuse for your foolishness ;)
    Although please enlighten me, with some of your views, in regards to what flaws you think BJJ has.



    If you want to split hairs then fair enough you have a good point. But tapping out is all part of the "rules" :rolleyes:



    I agree.


    My legs were somewhat crossed, but not at the ankles.I'm aware of the effects of wrapping your legs around and crossing your ankles. It's a negative, and I was aware of it long before I decided to try a BJJ class.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2006

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