BJJ, Judo, Sambo and Catch (this is for you, flashlock)

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by TheMightyMcClaw, May 23, 2007.

  1. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    So, a while back, I posted a thread to initiate a discussion on the weaknesses of BJJ, specifically geared against flashlock's claims about BJJ being the number one martial art. This thread eventually turned into a hideous mud-fight, causing it to be closed.

    However, before the thread was closed, I felt I was getting to a good point, which was comparing Brazilian Jiujitsu to it's closest "brethren" martial arts; Judo, Sambo, and Catch Wrestling. I'd like to start a new discussion (mud-free!) focusing the comparison of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu with other submission grappling styles (such as the ones mentioned above), and what their relevant strengths and weaknesses. Specifically, I want to know how flashlock feels about these other martial arts, which share similar characteristics to BJJ, and have also proven themselves in mixed martial arts contests (Kazushi Sakuraba is a Catch Wrestler who has defeated numerous Gracies) and world militaries (Sambo was developed by the Russian military, and as far as I know, is still used by it).
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Paging saladbar... paging saladbar... :D
  3. Alansmurf

    Alansmurf Aspire to Inspire before you Expire Supporter

    Baiting is against the TOS .......

    but enjoy the fishing ..

    Smurf :D :D :D
  4. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    Yeah, but is this really baiting?
  5. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    You be nice, Slip. I don't want this thread to get closed too.
  6. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Actually, I've been looking at a similar thing, but from the CACC standpoint.

    Sambo: my understanding is that the sport Sambo rules disallow chokes, and that one can win with a clean throw. Leglocks are also emphasized, and I believe the guard is typically seen as a bad possition for the guy on the bottom 'cause of this. However, I'm only about 85% certain of everything I've just said, as I've got limited knowledge of Sambo.

    Judo: it's been said eleventy billion times before, but BJJ has its roots in Judo. If you look at the old-school Judo rules, there was more time alloted for ne-waza (ground techniques), so in the past these were given more emphasis. "Combat Judo" was a fighting system adopted by the US military during WWII, perhaps validating Judo as a military fighting system, or at least the root of one. These days, the emphasis is on throws, with limited ground-grappling, and so it has a reputation of having killer throws, clinchfighting and takedowns compared to BJJ, while generally having noticably poorer ground skills. Judo competitions can also be won via pinfall, which means that possitional dominance is looked at a little differently than in BJJ.

    Catch-as-Catch-Can: in the US, the rules for CACC matches allowed for a winner by pinfall or submission, hence being on ones back was considered a bad possition. Generally, choking was not allowed; however, a "half-choke", where the forearm is against the throat but there's no counter-pressure, was allowed. It should be noted, though, that in the manual reprints that I have, full chokes like the "sleeper" (RNC) are demonstrated, even though their illegal nature was clearly stated. Some matches also allowed for a winner by "rolling fall", where a person is thrown and, for the briefest instant, their four points (shoulders & hips) touch the ground, though this was apparently not the standard. Nearly any hold imaginable was allowed, including neck cranks, body scissors, ankle twists, shoulder locks, and elbow compressions. The "double wrist lock" (kimura) and the nelson series seem to have been the most popular holds. Compared to your typical BJJ curriculum, their weakness would be a lack of a bottom game, or at least a limited one, and a lack of gi techniques, though seeing as CACC was competed without the gi, it wasn't really an issue within the system. The strengths, to me, are the wider variety of holds and the fact that both the standup and ground game were given attention. As a side note, I think I read somewhere that Lancashire Catch disallowed or de-emphasised pins, so I'd imagine that they had a bottom game and/or were more inclusive with their submissions. I'd actually include Sakuraba and other "catch wrestlers" trained in Japan as "hybrid wrestlers", since there was none of the emphasis on the pin and I'm pretty sure some Judo crept into the systems used in Pancrase, Shooto, and the like, though I could just be splitting hairs here.
  7. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I have never trained any grappling style but BJJ, but after discussion with numerous Judo players, they all admit that BJJ has evolved the ground game further than Judo ever did. Coming up with never-before seen ways to submit people, and transitions into those submissions, and creating easy to utilize flows from sub to sub, making it truly a game of speed chess is something distinctive to BJJ.

    But there are Judo schools out there, who have notorious ground grapplers, and they clean house at submission and BJJ tournaments such as NAGA and Grapplers Quest. But most of those schools have BJJ affiliates, or cross-train themselves.
  8. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Can we toss Shuai Jiao in the mix as well? I'm curious to see how folks perceive the two. And if Judo can be included, certainly SJ can. I can offer something more in-depth (kind of, anyway... don't expect any nutriding) in a few weeks once I get a better handle on the new BJJ classes.
    Last edited: May 24, 2007
  9. JayKayD

    JayKayD Meet my friend PAIN!

    Do you have a source about Shuai Jiao? i really don't know anything about it, but i'm interested in all things grappling.
  10. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Well in that case, lets not forget about Tai Chi! [ame=""]Tai Chi principles for ground grappling - YouTube[/ame]
  11. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    It's mostly a throwing art, although it does incorporate locks and groundwork. I guess the closest comparison I would make would be with Judo. Very similar from my (limited) understanding of Judo. Just not much of an emphasis on pins and the like.

    Anyway, as internet sources are mostly the total suxxor, the best book I can think of would be "Chinese Fast Wrestling for Fighting". Pretty good book. Most of the websites I found suck completely.

    btw, you kinda asked for it by putting flashlock's name in the friggin title of the thread, McClaw. You shall give yourself a facepalm for that, to be administered immediately.

    And Kempo, you behave! (Like that'll happen).
    Last edited: May 24, 2007
  12. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    Amazing! I have that same book! I like it too. Lots of good techniques and pictures in it.
  13. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    It's one of the few decent sources on the art. Even my old kwoon's webpage gives an absolutely terrible description of the art... just enough to get the reader's attention, but not too in-depth. It's frustrating when trying to direct people to a resource.
  14. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    Interesting. I was under the impression that Shuai Jiao was only about the throw - locks and groundwork were outside of it's domain.

    Personally, I think a training regimen of Shuai Jiao (for throwing) and BJJ (for groundwork) would make a very well rounded grappler, much for the same reasons that people will cross train BJJ with judo or wrestling. When scholastics require me to haul myself over to China again, I'm hoping I can find a good Shuai Jiao coach.
  15. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Not modern Shuai Jiao. Modern Shuai Jiao does incorporate groundwork. Not necessarily to the extent of BJJ or wrestling, but it's there. Trust me, it was part of my old Kwoon's curriculum. 19th Lohan is a great resource for Shuai Jiao.

    I'll let you know in a few weeks... I just started my BJJ class last night ;)
  16. JayKayD

    JayKayD Meet my friend PAIN!

    Damn you all, making me spend my money. I only just spent £45 buying Gene Lebells 'Encylopedia of Finishing Holds'!
  17. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    I don't see the point of offering any opinion. I've tried to be honest and open, and have gotten attacked and mocked for it en mass. I have no experience in the arts you've mentioned; I can't even begin because even if I had 5 years experience in each of those arts, people would say I need 6. If I had 6, I'd need 10 (at least, salad bar! And how do you get experience in all these arts unless you are... a salad bar MA?). When I cited my instructor's years of experience, then experience became a bad thing--he is "10 years behind". You see, nothing can be done, and when someone, like you, really wants to learn and have an open debate, it just gets shut down and lost in the complete idiocy of some of the other members.

    You seem sincere, McClaw. All I can tell you is--and this might be way off base--BJJ is beautiful and it works. By beauty, I mean it is elegant in its simplicity, and within that simplicity lies an anti-intuitive complexity. It stems from the art of the samurai, jiujutsu. Before BJJ, I used to think I had an inkling of what self-defense and MA was. After being exposed to it--I see I knew nothing. I had the clues, but not the whole picture.

    What are the main differences between BJJ and these other arts you've mentioned?

  18. Linguo

    Linguo Valued Member

    From wiki:

    * Sport Sambo (Borba Sambo) is stylistically similar to amateur wrestling or Judo. The competition is similar to Judo, but with some differences in rules, protocol, and uniform. For example, in contrast with Judo, Sambo allows all types of leg locks, while not allowing chokeholds.
    * Self-defense Sambo, which is similar to Aikijutsu, jujitsu or Aikido, and is based on self-defense application, such as defending against attacks by both armed and unarmed attackers.
    * Combat Sambo (Russian: Boyevoye Sambo). Utilized and developed for the military, this is arguably the root of Sambo as it is now known, and includes practice with weapons and disarming techniques. Competition in combat sambo resembles older forms of judo and modern mixed martial arts, including extensive forms of striking and grappling.
    * Special Sambo - developed for Army Special Forces and Rapid Reaction Police (Militsija) teams and other law enforcement formations. The "Special Sambo" version differ from team to team due to different tasks and aims, however the base of any special system developed in that field is of course Sambo. The brightest example of the police special sambo is Volk Han.

    There's also a version of sambo known as Freestyle Sambo, which is basically no-gi grappling and allows for chokes, unlike Sport Sambo.
  19. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    Sambo all the way. From my experience, good Vodka is far more accessible in North America than is good Cachaca or Shochu. :D
  20. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Welcome to the dark side :D

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