BJJ in Street Clothes

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Pretty In Pink, Mar 31, 2020.

  1. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Agreed, but I also think this makes an important point
    In a stressful situation (like self defence) you probably want your core go-to techniques to be ones that minimize the risk from non-rules based stuff, weapons etc

    I think you make an important point here and maybe my lens is a little skewed to the BJJ vs MMA (as I train BJJ, but hardly any MMA)

    Sure, but we also have evidence of them working in that context and evidence of MMA fighters, rugby players etc surviving all the mainstay techniques of MMA (otherwise the fights would be very short)
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Dunc, have you have any experience of these methods being effective, or is it just because your invested a lot of time in a skill set, that you want it to be true?
  3. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    We also have experience from Street fights YouTube encounters and people like Geoff Thompson that shows the more gross motor the skill the easier it works under real pressure,

    Landing a precision punch under stress is hard enough for a trained fighter, hitting a small target like the eyes or throat by design is even harder

    Likewise finding the eyes of an opponent who is sat on top feeding you your teeth and constantly moving might be harder than simply creating a barrier and getting up

    Not to mention you do this or use the shredder and intentionally blind someone and they turn out to be unarmed your off to court and probably out of society for a while
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm not convinced that is a likely outcome. I've had, and seen, a fair number of accidental fingers in the eyes in training, but while shocking it's never resulted in loss of vision or debilitating pain.

    The most convincing use is to control the posture of someone, as it takes a special person to push against fingers in the eyes, or to elicit a flinch from a quick eye jab. The argument then comes as to whether other techniques are better in the same situation... which I think will be the case in the majority of situations.
  5. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I have a load of evidence from my own training / experimentation, but it’s only on the mat
    This includes fully pressure testing ideas in my own “lab” and exploration with my BJJ coach
    I would say that I’ve had to discard a lot of traditional methods along the way in the same way that I don’t incorporate a lot of sporting methods into my game

    :) fair question
    I’m particularly interested to see if there is a way to triangulate between the self defence lessons from the older Japanese MA and the training methods and subsequent evolution of techniques from say Judo and BJJ
    I feel that so many people get into martial arts for self defence, but really end up doing something very removed from it. Probably there is a way to provide the best of both worlds and that’s been my focus for a long time now
    Perhaps this is my bias
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  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm intrigued as to how you "fully" pressure test eye-gouges.

    I'm also curious if you feel there are any contextual reasons relating to any differences in tactical focus and technique selection between historic Japan and today.
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  7. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Gimp masks mostly ;-)
    Actually only for the striking kind of face attacks
    It's quite straightforward to test the various face grips in grappling without hurting the eyes if both parties are at a certain level of skill (& temperament)

    Yes I think there are quite a few
    People talk a lot about armour, swords etc and whilst there's a bit of that still kicking around in my view most of the techniques relating to that sort of thing have largely been evolved out of the traditional systems that I'm familiar with (not the uber traditional / classical stuff of course)

    My experience suggests that the main differences are from
    a) Prevalence of not-allowed-techniques in stand up grappling. Eg pushing the chin up (& fingers in eyes) to take balance backwards, groin kicks to take balance forwards and up
    b) Avoidance of not-allowed-techniques in ground work. Particularly ear claps, throat and neck strikes & grabbing the balls. Note: I don't think that many of these are finishers in this context, but they are a great way to create space &/or a reaction as you initiate an escape or counter
    c) Jackets with striking & grappling. Hopefully self-evident that there are adjustments here vs gi grappling &/or MMA
    d) Knives. The idea that you opponent may have a knife (& you won't know it) changes a you tactics / game a LOT
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  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    In combat sambo at least hey have jacket wrestling with striking.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  9. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Good luck explaining to the police why you eye gouged or throat striked an unarmed opponent :eek::eek:

    In all seriousness why are you that bothered with this stuff other than you have invested a lot of time in it? because you are more likely to die from a heart attack or a disease linked to obesity than to be seriously assaulted by an opponent especially if you are over 25 and don't go to clubs every week.

    And in my experience most people who take up martial arts for self defence purpose actually mean they want to increase self confidence and that's best done through some form of physical contact with a resisting opponent.

    Grappling with knifes is fun but if you are seriously thinking it's something that's going to happen to you, arm yourself because unarmed no matter how much you train you are seriously fecked

    And as for the eye attacks, groin grabs etc the Gracie's went through a number of what we are lead to believe were true no rule fights with and without clothes and they seemed to not be that bothered with this stuff clinch, trip, move to a dominant position strike take you back and choke them, with or without clothes or the dirty tactics
    Dead_pool likes this.
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I don't see that you need to be in fear of imminent attack to enjoy training in non-sport MA.

    Why bother fly-fishing when you can catch fish much more easily by stringing a net across the river?

    Why bother reading about military history when you are never going to lead an army into battle?

    People have all kinds of crazy interests and hobbies. As long as they're having fun and getting out the house, I don't see the harm in it.
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  11. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I get training for fun but why put such an emphasis on something when you will never use it?
    Historically re inacting an art fair enough but trying to marry sport training with self defence when it's never a real priority just doenst appeal to me, and if you are doing it because you feel in danger then I think you are doing yourself a disservice

    better to arm yourself and learn how to use a knife, baton etc effectively
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  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I get that it doesn't appeal to you, but it's horses for courses, whatever floats your boat etc...

    I think the weapon advice is a bit silly though. Carrying a weapon because you feel in danger is the worst possible advice, because you not only increase your risk of being injured if you do find yourself in an altercation, but then you also run the risk of really putting your self-defence skills to work when you end up in prison.

    If someone is training because they are paranoid and insecure about being attacked then they have bigger problems to deal with than picking which martial art to train. In my experience combat sports are not immune from attracting those types anyway.
    Dunc likes this.
  13. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Yup pretty much what David said

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