Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Pretty In Pink, Mar 31, 2020.
Keenan is keeping up with the BJJxStreet stuff.
Haven't watched them all yet but it's interesting.
Thanks for sharing
I enjoy Keenan's posts, he's an entertaining guy and there are some really good lessons here
Keenan is only really considering the situation of "If an untrained guy tried to bite, kick the balls etc, then I'd be fine because jiu jitsu" and I tend to agree with his conclusions on that basis
However, as you know I feel that people who haven't studied the techniques and details on how to "do the dirty stuff" seem to dismiss their viability based only on this superficial analysis. In my view this is a bit like dismissing leg locks because you tried them a couple of times in the academy and lost your position
I'd dismiss them in that they won't end a fight if they're not as good at fighting as I am.
I'll take Keenan over any "trained biter" in the world.
What about a jiu jitsu guy who has a system to deliver attacks to the eyes, groin, back of the neck, throat etc?
Isn't that what we learned when John D developed the leg lock system and destroyed everyone with it, or Keenan's worm guard?
My point is that there is a difference between dismissing attacks like these being delivered by an amateur vs say a grappler who's able to incorporate them into their game
And attacks to the eyes, groin, throat etc are fight enders - that's why they are banned
It depends on what the rate limiting factor of the fight is, it mostly isn't who's the dirtiest fighter, although it can be.... It's mostly who's the better positionally, or who's the best striker/wrestler.
Spending a lot of time on minor things, and not on the major things is a mistake.
Saying that doing it occasionally can be a good eye opener!
It's a bit like countering wrestlers, you could:
1) just be a better wrestler,
2) do wrestling, but also train non wresting sports specific counters, so guiliteens, kimura traps etc for BJJ
3) just do the counters.
No 2 is the best, no 1 is still a good option, whilst no3 is what a lot of people end up doing, (myself included)
They can be fight Ender's but they mostly arnt, but they do limit people's long term fight career.
That's why they're banned.
Sure nothing is 100%, but if you watch the effect of all the accidental or deliberate fouls in MMA I think it's pretty conclusive
And those guys don't really study how to do these things
Yeah they're fight enders if that other person is also super competent at fighting. All the dudes in the UFC kicking each other in the nads are good at fighting. The amount of wind up someone who hasn't trained it would take would be astounding. (I have trained groin kicks and eye jabs from JFKB).
They don't study hitting moving targets?
How about applying this to a real situation,
How many dirty targets would you personally need to be able to target, to take out Tyson at his current age?
Leglocks were around long before danahers guys, no one really dismissed them (apart from the traditional Gracie Torrance guys) what they did was discount them because they tend to give up top position which in no gi sub only is fine (which most of his guys take part in) in gi it can lead to you losing points, and in MMA if countered can lead you to being knocked the feck out.
In MMA people take time outs for accidental eye pokes and groin shots, equally some like mighty mouse shake them off, shake the ref off for attempting a time out and destroy their opponent regardless
Does sneaking up, armed with a sledgehammer, count as a dirty target?
In terms of grappling I view stuff like this as less problematic than a lock or choke/stranglehold, If you're in a position to gouge my eyes, I'm not controlling your arms well enough, so you could probably do something worse to me, like punch me repeatedly in the head.. Likewise, if I've taken mount and pinned your arms, sure I could eye gouge, but other options are available, and I'd be more likely to take one of those.
Same with striking, if I can kick you in the personals, I can probably kick you in the knee, and I'd put more faith in that being a fight ender.
I am not saying that dirty techniques trump solid martial arts skills
But I am saying that dirty techniques (ie outside of the ruleset), if studied and incorporated into your game, provide a significant advantage over someone of equal skill who had dismissed them as so many people (including folk here I think) do
Yeah but the amount of people of equal skill to me shrinks all the time so what's the point in training dirty techniques at all?
Not if that guy who has dismissed them spends the time you spend in simulatting those strikes actually punching and throwing a moving resisting target
I don't dismiss them but I've seen first hand what happens when someone with a little ground knowledge and training in this stuff trys it against a well trained MMA coach the out come wasn't nice once you escalate something in sparring like this you had better be prepared for what comes back
And realistically how much time do you need to spend on it,oh look when you take the back you can take the eyes see, in mount you can hit the throat as well as punch the face, I'm guard you can hit the groin like this,
What one lesson to show it to a good grappler, once or twice a year to remember it, because of you can dominate position in MMA and strike on the ground and in the clinch from a dominate position adding this stuff in is easy
Not to mention in bjj, wrestling and MMA you are taught to dominate head position, dominate grip position, and dominate the positional, doing this takes away a lot of the dirty tactics and opens them up to you as a matter of course anyway
I don’t believe that studying these things gets you a pass from sparring/rolling
I also know that you can train these things in a live manner (as with all subs etc holding back to prevent injury or setting them up and moving on)
With respect I think you’re looking at this through the lens of “Trained grappler/MMA coach” vs “Guy who knows next to nothing but tries to bite/gouge a much better martial artist”
I don’t believe there are any short cuts in martial arts
I’d say it depends on what you’re training for
If it’s the BJJ comp, octagon etc I’d agree with this
Good to know the basics of self defence suff and train it from time to time. Bearing in mind a few key adjustments may suffice
If you want to have more focus on self defence, then I’d suggest that the amount of time you spend focused on these adjustments should be more than this
And the reason I feel this, which may be the source of this discussion, is that a) in certain cases the disallowed/forbidden techniques are more efficient and b) some adjustments needed for self defence have a pretty deep influence on your game
I'm looking at it from the point of view of someone who training in TMA , jkd and self defense training and in grappling and MMA, (with one of Geoff Thompson's students my first MMA and grappling coach) who has seen this arguement a lot and doesn't buy the premise it's that different from MMA training
As for the adjustments from a pure sport grappling aspect maybe ,but from a MMA grappling with strikes view point not so much,
From a striking point of view I want to be the one on top, dominating position, If I'm on bottom I want to be controlling the distance I want you either really close with overhooks and head control or really far with my knees and legs between us and to work to get up or escape/sweep
In the clinch I want to control tie ups, dominate head position and destroy your balance
All of those apply equally to a self defense situation where you allow groin, throat, eye strikes, neck cranks etc.
You only have a certain amount of time to train if you spent too much time in the pure self defense aspect you end up with the Gracie self defense stuff which most agree isn't that impressive
This conversation reminds me of a video I've posted before. I'm not advocating it, I'm not saying it proves anything, but it is an interesting demo (for the record, I fall more on the side of the fence with the dirty-tricks naysayers, simply because unless you are training with people who regularly use them with success in the real world, I think it is prudent to place your trust in techniques that you have consistently made work in sparring).
That clip is all about context and rules though
Grapple only and I'll use my shredder,
Really means it's ok for me to be on the bottom because you are looking for a sub not to take my head off so I can shred you all day.
To submit you from the top I have to be close to you so my head's close to you my eyes close to you etc and if I'm on the bottom I'm not allowed to do the same thing as you?
Now do the same thing under MMA rules where I want distance for my strikes and all I need to do is imobalise your hips to take your head off and the out comes different.
Same with clinching he employed classic judo entry and throws so the other guy had a field day, now defend solid strikes before I clinch it's much different
If all you do is sport bjj, or judo etc the self defence stuff might surprise you but if you train strikes as well,
I dont think any one is dismissing certain illegal techniques just how much time do you really need to spend on them and how much difference do they really make to an adrenaline fueled fighter, MMA fighters and rugby players have survived eye pokes, gouging and even being blinded and when these techniques were allowed people didn't drop from one kick the the balls, or even repeated punches there or being soccer kicked in the head they continued on, we have evidence of this from the early UFC and pride events, not to mention the Gracie in action stuff
Definitely a mistake some people make, and you already mentioned this, is equating the amount of time a professional MMA fighter takes to "recover" from an eye poke or groin shot with how that might play out in a different context. The context of a professional MMA fight incentivises fighters to overreact to them, so that the ref and judges take it seriously, and it is often in their interest to have a break.
Separate names with a comma.