Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Belfsst Samurai, Jul 8, 2010.
In my youth, my girlfriends and I went "to the ground" often
Nice! Unfortunately I've been doing submission training with my dummy (Submission master). I have not been into real situations like this. I would have been awesome if I can pull off a rear naked choke on a thug!
What you think about those dummies? Looked at buying one last year but don't look worth the price
IME, armbar from the guard would be very rare for a real situation. It might happen if the person knew it was a one-on-one fight or if the person was in the "mindset" to use an armbar even though better options are available.
One combat principle is "minimum movement and maximum mobility". When you apply an armbar, if you are in a situation where you "lock up" with an opponent, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage against a much larger and stronger opponent or against multiple attackers.
Experienced fighters know that pressure and mobility are a big factors. They may not say it in so many words, but basically all techniques are done on the move. An arm bar would be a break or a take down and would be done on the move, breaking the arm BEFORE or at the SAME time as going to the ground, not from the guard.
The best ground fighters do not lose mobility on the ground, although it may be a battle of inches instead of feet due to the ground. They are able to apply pressure to a small area, immobilize an area, pivot around it, take the back side, get the opponent to move. At no point except briefly to break or choke would they be locked with the opponent.
A more typical fight with an experienced grappler might be take out the legs, choke them out or punch them out, all done on the move while applying constant pressure. Locks could happen to control the enemy such as how law enforcement might use locks to establish control over a criminal. Any breaks would likely be small joint breaks to the fingers, wrist, or strikes to the joints.
In training, the seven second rule should often be in effect for self-defense. Roughly 3 seconds stand up and 4 seconds ground. In training it goes to the ground, a trainer counts to 3 (3 seconds) and after the 3rd count you need to be able to disengage and move on to a new target after doing your damage to the first opponent.
All technique are done on the move.
BJJ training is excellent for teaching fundamentals of maintaining mobility on the ground and against walls, and NOT locking up with an opponent even if the opponent is trying to lock up with you. Just add the striking into BJJ and it is very applicable to self-defense for what most people are looking for.
Right, before I reply, I was wondering what your experience is?
How long does it take to double leg someone and smash their face in with an elbow? Because that's jiujutsu too, and it doesn't take very long.
How long does it take you to smash someones face in with an elbow standing up? Probably longer, and you are probably in more danger too.
With all due respect, why don't you get to the point instead of belaboring it.
What are you getting at?
Let's see, where should I start. I probably logged in 200 hours of combat simulation in Halo on the original Xbox.
As a side note, my BJJ instructor, who I started cross-training with 13 years ago and is a second degree black belt in BJJ, has won grapplers quest in Vegas a few years in a row. When he got in one real fight trying to stand up for a woman, the guy that was harrassing her charged him throwing punches. My instructor threw him to the ground, got mount, and proceeded to punch him out. I've seen him roll with guys over a hundred pounds heavier than him and win by choke out and by armbar... in real world, there was no armbar.
I didn't mean to disrespectful man, I just wanted to know if I was dealing with a RBSD ninja.
My personal opinion is that an armbar is not a problem on the ground, as long as you are going for the break, to hold it there would be stupid. An armbar would actually be pretty easy against an untrained opponent, some idiot who tries to eye gouge you/choke you. And just to clarify, I'm talking as if you already went to the ground.
The Situation will always dictate the tactics.
Putting someone to sleep is a better restraint then breaking their arm, However putting someone to sleep after you've broken their arm is still a valid possibility.
All that armbar choke stuff is great in the gym, and I would totally use it if I couldn't smash their face in pretty much immediately.
Let's face it, if you bowl someone over in a fight - the best thing to do is smash their face in, not set up an intricate armbar or choke.
1) Hell yea, although Im a lot better at chokey chokey time then I am at smashy smashy time.
2) Depends on the situation, unless it was a no rules fight to the death, with my brother, at home, with wing chun.
Yeah, I was told to always go for the choke if possible.
An uncle of mine told me a few stories from the 1930s when he was growing up. He was a Judo guy and where he lived, the Japanese and Chinese did not get along. He would get in gang fights with the Chinese. He told me that the Chinese gang members would often kick. They would wait for the kick and catch it, then they would take the guy down... then it was over, usually ended with a choke out. Thinking that this was happening 80 years ago in gang fights is a good indication that nothing is new under the sun.
This uncle also told me about a Judo champion from Japan was working at the docks and got in a fight with a filipino man. The fight lasted a while, the filipino man had a knife. But eventually the Judo guy broke the arm of the filipino man and then choked him out. The Judo guy told my uncle that the fight took too long because the filipino used a knife in strange ways that he hadn't seen before. If the filipino had come with an overhand strike like in Judo training, the fight would have ended much faster.
Goes along with your post.
If I can Blood strangles are my 'self defence' finishing move. Less thrashing around then an air choke, and quicker to take effect too.
However ill take running away like school girl too.
I am a RBSD guy, though. Pretty much since I trained around 20 years ago with an ex-army Ranger in tactical firearms. Trained with FBI, law enforcment, etc. Once you start training with a group of people, it just end up that you get to train with others in the same professions.
Anyway, armbar is good as in the technique, but there are so many different ways to get there that armbar from the guard is not necessarily a preferred method for real situations, for example.
One thing to think about is the use of breaks to stun rather than as a submission. When I hyperextend an elbow joint, it is like a strike to stun the arm. It MIGHT break the arm, but I'm not waiting around to find out, I'm stunning and moving on to a take down, a control lock, or further striking. Using breaks to stun an enemy is quick and allows for transition to other techniques rather than staying locked up with an opponent. They can be done on the move as I put it.
Another thing to think about is available targets. I might armbar to stun an enemy, but to actually break, it might be much more efficient to break their fingers, thumb, or wrist. If I have a hard weapon, then attacking the tendons directly or the muscles might serve just as well or better. I'm a big fan of using key locks if I can get them and then from there I can armbar if I set it up or a number of other things.
Principle being, "always stun or unbalance the opponent before lock or take down".
Ugh, striking pressure points? Good luck, if you're hitting somone with an object then you're more likely to break whatever you're hitting than to stun.
And I said before, in a fight, I wouldn't use an armbar as a restraining technique, I'd simply break it and move on.
What's all this about armbars being complicated? They are really simple! It's the first white belt thing I learned!
Agreed, it may not be the best option, and if so, then don't take it, but if someone strikes you and you trap there arm, or they try and choke you, best option is generally the arm bar. All this is still under the assumption that you are on the ground. If you're not on the ground, chances are you shouldn't go there.
Who said pressure points, rick young still teaches kali doesnt he? its called defanging the snake.
I learned pressure points from Ninjutsu class = No faith in pressure points
Catch wrestle and then get back to us on those
Put the asleep then break the arm?
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