BJJ Basics class?

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Obi Wan Shinobi, May 6, 2017.

  1. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Completely ignoring the 'debate' around the way we conceptualise attributes and the effect (if any) this has on the efficacy of coaching; I have been exposed to the SBGi form of BJJ Fundamentals coaching and have to say that out of the 9+ BJJ/MMA gyms I've trained at over the last 8-9yrs it's been by far the best.

    The technical curriculum which looks at position and guiding principles within that position first layed a really strong foundation for me which meant that even when I've taken long breaks from grappling I've still been able to form a reasonably solid game again after returning. The scatter gun technique by technique approach of some other gyms was also made more navigable by having this pre-existing foundation.

    Isolation sparring positional controls and escapes is also a fantastic method to solidify that technical material.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  2. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I had forgotten about the online grading.
  3. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    That is a poor way to teach someone basics. I spent 6 months in such a situation and literally got nothing from it. It makes learning way harder then it needs to be.
  4. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Sounds like what I would have preferred. I am not a fan of the price of the Gracie academy near me, but am tempted by their basics class they run 5 days a week.
  5. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Gracie academy basics isn't really anywhere near the same as it's all drilled 'dead' and focused on self defence techniques. There is no live rolling until after blue as far as I know. Also the knowledge and experience of the instructor might be questionable. However it certainly is structured. You should give it a go perhaps.

    What positions, and escapes are you already reasonably comfortable with? What is your guard like?

    BJJ can volve quite a bit of self directed study and learning under fire. I personally don't mind that. I reckon once you have the basics of position down it's all up to you to refine it anyway and add on to create your game.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  6. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    If you got nothing out of it in 6mths then that's just as much on you as it is on the instruction IMO.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Gracie academy basics are really good, and they've started sparring before bluebelt again, so I'd say theres a good chance you'd definitely learn something usable inside six months, but as you've already said you hate grappling, you probobly won't engage with the classes and again learn nothing, but it's up to you.
    Knee Rider likes this.
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    One is related to the other, that's how come they can afford good facilities, and a large timetable.
  9. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    It is hard to even get a game when you never received more then a few actual instances of instruction from the coach. Also, not sure how learning in a random environment is conducive to learning when my previous experience had me learning almost nothing at all. You mention no live rolling till blue as a negative, but to be honest, I would like actual time drilling things, instead of the haphazard approach favored by so many. Self directed learning is usually looked down on and discouraged in other arts, why is it acceptable with bjj? Why can't bjj come up with a teaching methodology that does not force newbs to be their own instructor?
  10. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    How can you expect me to learn anything if from one class to the next it is complete randomness with no rhyme or reason to it? How is that in any way conducive to actual learning?
  11. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    No. I said I came to hate grappling because of poor instruction and structure. I am not a fool and know full well the value of grappling and its necessity to a well rounded martial artist.

    I am just shocked at the number of people who are defending the random haphazard approach..
    David Harrison likes this.
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm kinda shocked at people blaming you for having a useless coach!
    Kframe likes this.
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Nope, people aren't saying it's your fault, it's just after six months you definitely will of learnt something, as you said before the first thing you learnt was gift wrap from guard into a sweep (I'm guessing a flower sweep variant). So you will of been exposed to closed guard, breaking posture, limb control, upsetting Base, sweeping, and either the mount or armbar top position. It's not an optimum way to learn for sure, that's why BJJ is all over YouTube etcc too.
    Knee Rider likes this.
  14. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    The coaching method might not have suited Kframe but it's not an indication that the coach was useless.

    BJJ coaching could benefit from more structure for sure in some instances but the nature of learning a martial art (especially BJJ) requires a lot of self exploration and development on behalf of the individual. If you are training for 6 months and rolling and have learned nothing then that demonstrates to me a lack of self direction, self reflection and a lack of interest. That's just the way it is for me. If people are passing your guard you can ask, think and experiment responses to that. Their are sites all over the net about it and I guarantee that some guard will have been covered in class.

    Self directed study is a good thing as it allows you to follow your intellectual curiosity and self expression.

    With that said yes, a more structured approach to position is a huge benefit and the best way to teach people new to BJJ. Beyond that, it's bespoke pickup on details and a huge amount of personal refinement through rolling and mat time (and a sensible balance of drilling if you feel drawn to that).

    Irrespective of coaching quality I've always applied this approach to every man I've done. It's the difference between going to lectures only or doing so and reading around your subject as a student.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  15. Vince Millett

    Vince Millett Haec manus inimica tyrannis MAP 2017 Gold Award

    When I started, I rolled first lesson and our new people still do. They are looked after and worn't get hurt. They will be put with sensible partners and they are told to try to whatever we've done in that class but mostly just to get used to moving around and getting on top. If we were drilling a complex technique sequence. they're told perhaps just to try to remember the first part of it and not to worry about the entire sequence. It works just fine.

    We do now have a beginners' class and a fundamentals class (not quite the same thing) and those who attend the beginners class frighten me. At white belt they are successfully applying core techniques to a good standard very quickly but I understand that not all clubs have the option of putting on a dedicated beginners' class.

    There wasn't a beginners' class when I started training so I was straight in and picked up what I could. However, there are a few factors to consider:
    • The subject matter of a class wasn't random - a position or a series of related techniques would be covered over a few weeks so it was possible to learn good, applicable, stuff straight away without it being confusing. You could see where it fitted.
    • The warm up section of the class includes movement drills that are actually techniques eg bridge and shrimp, rolling to turtle, leg drags etc so some basic techniques are being taught and learned without being formally part of the instruction in the lesson. Later on, when being taught a technique, the student finds they already know part of it, eg escaping from side control and they find they already know how to shrimp and make space.
    • A lot of technique and movement is learned form higher belts while rolling. "You could have put your hand there and pulled in this direction"..."Can you see I have no base in this direction? You could sweep me that way"...etc etc. I learned a great deal from sparring partners in my early months.
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I dunno, I'd feel pretty useless if someone had spent 6 months being taught by me and came away feeling they'd learnt nothing.

    Or is it okay to charge people money for just the use of facilities and others to roll with?

    I completely agree that self-directed study is a good thing, but I also strongly believe that it should be tempered and steered by good tutelage.
  17. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I wouldn't feel too good about it either but then I might also accept that it might not be entirely within my control how someone engages with the teaching.

    Bottom line, I'm not necessarily advocating the style of teaching that goes on in a lot of BJJ gyms; in my opinion it is suboptimal. But I will say being suboptimal is different from being useless.

    I've been in those environments - multiples ones - for long periods of time so I know exactly how it works there. I also know that while it's not perfect you can still learn a lot if you recognition use the way the process works and make those adjustments. If you are some who just wants spoonfeeding then you won't get anywhere also just because you aren't in a structured curriculum doesn't mean you aren't recieving high level technical instruction. I know some coaches who teach in the warmup - technique - roll model of instruction and they are excellent technically and excellent at picking out detail and imparting it.

    The process isn't necessarily useless it's just not the best way to do it. If you do 6mths like that you will and should pick stuff up if you are listening, observing asking questions, experimenting and reflecting. If you treat sparring as play and don't get frustrated easily you'll learn a lot within that.

    It really is a two way street... And much more so in that sort of model.

    As I keep saying it's not ideal and it's not how I would run a class but even with a solid basics programme there comes a point where you have to take the control and make this stuff your own anyway. If you can't do that you will get very little back long term.
    David Harrison and Dead_pool like this.

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