BJJ and JJJ differences ?

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by MingTheMerciles, Oct 6, 2006.

  1. New Jitsu

    New Jitsu New Member

    I can't think how any opinion can justify their art is 'the best'. It is completely arrogant to say one art is better than the other because there are too many factors to take into account, whether that is teacher, or 'aliveness' or cross-training or situation, etc.

    Saying one art is better than another is like saying a boxer will always beat a JKD practitioner, or that a JJ guy will always beat a BJJ guy. Of course everyone has an opinion, which is the basis of any forum, but what exactly is a 'good reason' to support a best art opinion? Anyway, this is old ground now, an argument that will be covered for years to come. BJJ is a superb art and utmost respect to anyone who is tough enough to stick at BJJ training but it is not the be-all-and-end-all. That's all I was saying. And when you've seen, on numerous occasions, people who have had no formal training in any art laying waste to every opponent silly enough to challenge them, fighting is much more than learning stuff in a dojo (any dojo).
     
  2. Covaliufan

    Covaliufan Valued Member

    You're wrong. How's that for humility or humble respect?

    In this funny world of ours some things are objectively true. It's really not all a matter of opinion. People have trouble comparing styles because it's not all about styles:

    individual>training method>style, a wonderful mantra worked out at bullshido

    So no, you can't say every bjj'er will beat every tae kwon do practitioner, or whatever comparisons you want to make in any direction. But some styles ARE better than others, if only because they may be centered around a better training method (see mantra).

    BJJ isn't perfect. MMA, for one, is better. But bjj IS good, mainly because its centered around full resistance training with an unrestrictive ruleset. That makes it consistently better than quite a lot of things.
     
  3. Lily

    Lily Valued Member

    Depends on the ruleset to a point as well.
     
  4. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Yeah but you can't deny there are trends. Certain arts tend to incorporate certain training methods and techniques more than others. You're unlikely to find chi sao in a judo club.

    To me, that's not what saying one art is better than another means. There are many things that can contribute to how good you are at fighting and the style is only one of them; others include individual skill, aggression, strength and experience . If I think my style is better than yours it doesn't automatically mean that I could beat you in a fight because you could have other attributes that make up for it, therefore I don't think it's really all that rude or arrogant to prefer one training method to another.

    If you - like most martial artists - care about learning effective self defence skills then of course you're going to evaluate the effectiveness of the various arts available before making a commitment. It's just common sense and it's exercised by people in all arts. IMO the only difference with full contact sport arts, particularly BJJ and MMA, is that they use evidence of full contact fights to support their point rather than just discussing theory e.g. wing chun punch vs karate lunge punch.
     
  5. Garibaldi

    Garibaldi Valued Member

    Better? How? In what context?

    You said yourself "individual>training method>style"
     
  6. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    The fact that the individual is more important than the style doesn't mean that there is no difference in quality between styles, it just means that's it's not the most important factor. I think MMA is better for self defence purposes because it covers more ground, but that doesn't mean I couldn't get wrecked by a BJJ guy.
     
  7. Garibaldi

    Garibaldi Valued Member

    It is so subjective that you should ignore it. You cannot compare oranges to apples. Just because an orange has more segments, it doesn't mean its better in a pie

    Now you are quantifying the subjectivities...by adding in "for self-defence" Even so, if BJJ will work for the individual how can anyone state its "worse" than something else? Or "better" for that matter.

    Does this mean that if you train MMA for a year you believe you can defend yourself in a situation better than someone who trains BJJ for a year? Or Aikido? Or TKD? Who can say which is better. If it works, good. That doesn't mean its better or worse than any other art.

    As Lily said these things always depend on the ruleset. And if we are talking no-rulesets in a genuine self-defence situation how can one art be better or worse than another?

    It's ALWAYS individual>training method>style
     
  8. MacWombat

    MacWombat Valued Member

    Here's a post that I posted on Bullshido about the whole notion of "individual > training method > style" notion. (In the original post I incorrectly put individual < training method < style and cursed a few times. These will be the only changes I make.)

    "The problem with the "individual" argument is that there are many more factors concerning the individual. If you've been posting on this forum long enough you've undoubtedly seen Phrost write "Individual > Training Methods > Style." (Oh yeah, I'm taking on Phrost) When I first read this it didn't sit well with me because I was reading Individual as how hard that individual works. However, the concept of "Individual" actually applies to every aspect of the individual. This includes their natural size, natural strength, natural athleticism, ability to learn, natural fighting ability, reaction time etc.

    This attributes are mostly things the person cannot control (you wondered why natural was in there so much). Thus when engaging in debates such as this one, one must take into account that it is the individual and not just hard work. Most of you are probably like, "No duh, MacWombat we already knew that."

    Well screw you I didn't for a while. Anyway when recommending a style we cannot simply say, "Well it is the individual that matters the most and the style that matters the least." The individual cannot control the majority of what makes the individual the most important aspect of the three.

    Furthermore, if training methodology is important it is not only so because alive training makes techniques work better. It does do this of course, but it also weeds out bad techniques. Thus if a style does not regularly practice proper training methodology that style will hold onto bad techniques. So great, we can say training methodology is 20 percent more important than style but only because it directly relates to how effective the style itself is.

    Finally if a style has consistenly had proper training methodology throughout its history and currently, shouldn't that be seen as an asset of the style, not something unrelated? If BJJ is great because it's continued its practice of live rolling and most of Aikido hasn't then well done BJJ and shame on you Aikido. Also, I'd like to take a poll of who thinks that training some one in BJJ with normal BJJ methods and training some one in Aikido with normal BJJ methods would result in a similarly adept fighter. Assuming that the two subjects were as much alike as possible and put in the same effort. Seriously I'm asking.

    P.S. This isn't MAP, let's stop saying IMO or IMHO after every post"

    Woops forgot about the last sentence there. Guess I'll keep it in.
     
  9. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    LOL. Good post IMHO.
     
  10. Atharel

    Atharel Errant

    There are more numbers than 0, 1, and infinity.
     
  11. Atharel

    Atharel Errant

    Hahaha, good one. :D
     
  12. MacWombat

    MacWombat Valued Member

    Haha, you jerk.
     
  13. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    That's not very polite, is it?
     
  14. MacWombat

    MacWombat Valued Member

    I respectfully acccept your opinion of my post with open arms and wish you all the best in life. I'm so glad we have this wonderful invention of the internet so we can exchange ideas freely even if we disagree! What a woundrous time to live in!
     
  15. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    That's better. :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2007

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