BJJ and JJJ differences ?

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by MingTheMerciles, Oct 6, 2006.

  1. Keikai-Tsutsumi

    Keikai-Tsutsumi New Member

    I don't need to test a lock to destruction to know that it is going to do a hel;ll of a lot of damage. I can assure you that when a lock is applied CORRECTLY or a throw done correctly the result is going to be much the same in real life.

    I've been punched enough to know the person doing the punch is doing it right or not. Training with reflex defences where the attack is signaled and the defender has no idea what is coming is closer to real life than competition. The samurai who developed and used this system obviously found it to be effective because they survived real combat. For centuries kata training was the norm in most Japanese martial arts. They also survived. They trained to get correct technique and from there applied it in real combat.

    Competition is a form of training that has advantages and disadvantages. It is little more than that.

    Greg Palmer

    Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu
     
  2. Garibaldi

    Garibaldi Valued Member

    :)

    Precisely my point in how arts that were intended to be effective become redundant by ineffective training means and people relying on knowledge over experience. Maybe that will change given the infusion of "live" training into many arts these days?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2006
  3. Garibaldi

    Garibaldi Valued Member

    Sorry, that is knowledge. Not experience. What experience do you have in any shape or form that it will actually land as intended. What if you miss? Without experience you cannot claim that the knowledge is correct

    The result is the same "in theory"...but if you haven't tested that, how will you ever know how "similar" or "dissimilar" the application is in real life? Until then it is simply theory..


    :confused: So what are you saying?

    The point you've made yourself is "applied in real combat" which then refined the techiques and developed the art. They survived the training but not every Samurai survived or escaped combat uninjured. Which do you think was more effective in helping refine & adapt the art to be more effective?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2006
  4. Dropbear

    Dropbear Valued Member


    how is a pad or a glove going to help me apply a wrist lock or an arm lock 'properly' so that I destroy the wrist or elbow?

    How is competing against someone more 'realistic' training than reflexive randori?

    yes, kicking and punching with gloves/pads has it's use but again, how and why does that have to be competitive?

    jujitsu is primarilly a defensive art. a competition between two jujitsu students in our school would involve both people standing in front of each other waiting for the other person to attack. As someone else pointed out above, jujitsu tournaments often turn into badly ochestrated and performed karate punch/kickfests.
     
  5. Garibaldi

    Garibaldi Valued Member

    I'm quite happy to debate this but let's not be silly. There are different destruction techniques. Some rely on locks, others rely on strikes. Now I would hazard a guess I was referring to the striking variety. :rolleyes: The locks need to be tested in sparring to ensure you know how to attain the position to apply them & use the necessary leverage

    And I'll ask you "How is it similar to reflexive randori?"

    By definition, its competitive. There may be attacks you aren't expecting, it'll be against people you don't know, they may react differently, there are added pressures & adrenelin to cope with...etc etc. It is completely different! If you don't think you need to do it & never have, how do you know. Again, you are using knowledge without experience, and then it's just theory.

    I'm not saying reflexive randori doesn't have its place in training, but its is a specifically contrived method. Indeed, neither am I say competition is the be all & end all. But to miss anyone aspect of training or testing or applying a martial art means that you are not experiencing it fully.

    Who told you that? If you genuinely believe that then there is something wrong with your training methods & you are yet to understand what "defence" means in a tested & applied pressure environment. I suppose the Samurai mentioned in previous posts simply stood around on the battlefield waiting for an attack did they? :eek:
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2006
  6. Cloud9

    Cloud9 Valued Member

    History question.

    Why was Judo created? :)
     
  7. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    For physical and moral development of youth during a tumultuous period of transition from a culture with actual Samurais walking around with swords, to a culture without Samurais, to a violent engagement with the rest of the world.

    :confused: I think that's right.
     
  8. D@vid

    D@vid Valued Member

    sort of missed my point


    I think the reason WC can't or shouldn't be in the sports arena is because almost every single move is pretty much illegal in the ring. I say most because every move is taught to hit any part of the pressure point area, and all the sensitive areas such as the eyes, groin, etc. I'm not saying it's better, I'm saying some arts can't be applied to the ring.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2006
  9. Dropbear

    Dropbear Valued Member

    All I know is Garabaldi and I must train and practice in very very different arts ...There does not seem to be a lot of common ground.


    In the spirit of respect I chose not to argue.
     
  10. Garibaldi

    Garibaldi Valued Member

    No they can't you are right, but that's not the point I'm making. You wouldn't see Kyudo or Iaido in the ring but that doesn't mean they can't be tested competitively. Read what I'm saying....I'm not saying arts have to prove themselves by getting in the ring/cage, I'm saying without competitive application of the techniques in a way suitable for the art you will never understand how they will actually work. Compromises have to be made in the way they are tested cos you can't have a fight to the death but without that testing you are missing something.

    I know of many WC clubs that spar - in fact I know of one that places so much emphasis on ensuring you know how to land the techniques against a fully resisting free fighting opponent that they bought a redman suit!
     
  11. Garibaldi

    Garibaldi Valued Member

    Dropbear, its not an arguement. I'm debating a point. I fully respect your opinion & your right to it...but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it...and you don't have to agree with me.

    I doubt our styles are very different in the techniques they practise and I'm sure there is plenty of common ground. All we are talking about is one aspect of training that you don't do & we do.

    If you've not done "live" competition or free sparring, how do you know it won't change your appreciation of jujitsu? Just one more question...what if it comes down to the need to use what you practise on ONE occassion & it doesn't work? Surely its better to know before?
     
  12. D@vid

    D@vid Valued Member

    Ok, I'm "Reading what I'm[your] saying," and I realize I misunderstood you. I thought the word "competitive" was used as a means of sport.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2006
  13. Garibaldi

    Garibaldi Valued Member

    Cheers

    It can mean sport, but we shouldn't limit it to just that definition otherwise you'll miss out parts of the arts that are excluded by the rules of that specific sport. Find another way to test what you know.

    Kyudo is a great example of this (cheers aikimac). You can't have a sporting competition of two archers in a ring firing arrows at each other...but you can have accuracy competition in differing environments (eg on a windy day or a foggy/rainy one) to test your ability, otherwise you only ever understand how to apply what you have learnt other than in the context of the "safe" environment of your dojo.

    Read this that I found on Manchester Kyudo Groups homepage...surely the stages they refer to in learning, progression & testing oneself is the way all arts should relate to their training? If not you will never understand where you lack ability under pressure and consequently reach a plateau after which you will struggle to improve and learn.

    http://www.manchesterkyudogroup.org.uk/
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2006
  14. Aff

    Aff Valued Member

    hmm, i entered competitions with a wing chun based kung fu club many years ago (seal lung). thing is, you're all padded up and simply can't use most of the techniques your taught. it is fun though.

    even competition jujitsu won't prepare you for a real fight. tbh, it may even give you too much confidence in a real life situation! this can be perceived as a problem that may get you killed.

    if someone in the street decides he wants to fight you, are you going to drop straight into your stance and start bouncing about ready for a takedown? you need to be clever about situations like this. he may put a knife in you as you enter for a throw you've practiced many many times and see your window as success.

    there is also the fact nothing can prepare you for a real life situation.

    in competition both know the others moves. they have to know. they also know the other person is not going to kill them and is not carrying a weapon. chances are, in the street you will be alot more wary than you think you'd be, probably not being able to use 'your best' moves for fear of the dreaded concealed weapon.

    so what happens?

    you get distance, assess your opponent and try and talk him down whilst waiting for their move, possibly pre-empting it with one of your own if you deem necessary.

    so in reality, competition goes out of the window and raw reflexes kick in hopefully with some brainpower.

    at this point i don't think there's much difference between someone who learns one on one reflexively (word?) or someone fighting in competition.

    positives of competition imo are managing the adrenaline and if it turns into a standard brawl, but real street, hmm, not sure. you really don't want to be doing groundwork on the pavement outside a nightclub trying to get that triangle on some meathead as his friends suddenly appear :D

    remember that top cage fighter who was done over in a london nightclub last year? he was a lucky boy. overconfidence can be a dangerous thing.

    do you practice braking ridiculously hard every day just in case you have to make an emergency stop in your car one day? but you do brake every day you drive :)
     
  15. Atharel

    Atharel Errant

    Pressure point striking is not illegal in sport MMA.

    Do you do some kind of ballistic somersault joint locks that you simply absolutely positively cannot stop before their limbs explode? Why can't you test out your ability to apply the lock on a random attacker by having your classmates make unscripted attacks on you and/or try to put you in a lock?
     
  16. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    Example, ude gatame ude kujiki - body set arm breaking. You apply it, your opponent bends his arm or starts to move to escape.

    a) You slide to the ground with his arm to greatly increase the control and pressure on his elbow - because he's concentrating on avoiding the technique, he doesnt follow you to the ground quick enough, and his arm snaps. No more training partner.

    b) You decide to relinquish the lock and let his arm go. All of a sudden "that move doesn't work!"

    I think thats what Dropbear and Keikai-Tsutsumi are getting at :)
     
  17. Sever

    Sever Valued Member

    True, but if you practice the techniques you can use in that situation (or indeed just against a resisting opponent in class), it gives you a better chance of pulling off the techniques that you can't use in that situation if you need to. The thing is, just because you train in class against a resisting opponent with rules and padding and compete now and then, it does not mean you will be unable to use your common sense if you end up in a fight, nor does it mean you will be unable to use techniques that you can't use in these situations. Sparring, live randori etc gives you a leg up on gauging distance, balance, timing and how to best work your techniques when they're trying to stop you doing so that much so-called "reflexive training" (which usually means static) simply doesn't
    It can also help you deal with an adrenaline dump if you're used to getting hit etc.
    No one that knows what they're talking about, be they JJJ-er, BJJ artist or MMAist will advocate taking a street fight to the ground unless they absolutely have to and someone sticking a knife in you can happen no matter how you train, though I agree that awareness of such facts should be drilled into students as part of any self defence syllabus
    True again, but you can be better prepared to fight if you train for it
    However, live training can help you with adrenaline dumps etc. Anyone will be scared of someone pulling a knife on them. Again, these are things that should be drilled as part of SD
    No one is saying that there's no difference between competition fighting and self defence. No one ever says that. The point we're trying to make is that training with resistance ("live," if you will) will increase your chances of successfully defending yourself if you have to
    Any class saying it provides "self defence" training should be teaching such tactics. Sadly, many don't, and this is spread across nearly every style I've ever seen
    Again, competitive training does not make you incapable of using your brain and using your "deadly techniques" when you have to, it simply makes your techniques more likely to succeed
    No, you don't. You seem to have been tricked into believing the common strawman argument that people who train grappling etc always advocate taking a fight to the ground, can't poke the eyes and will wait for a ref to yell "Let's get it on" - we don't :)
    That was Lee Murray - a man never really known for his brain power. He's been a street fighter for many years, in this case he wound up in a multiple opponent situation with knives present. It doesn't matter how you train, in a situation like that, you're in a lot of trouble
    By the same token; how do you know you can do an emergency stop if you've only ever done it in theory? :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2006
  18. Keikai-Tsutsumi

    Keikai-Tsutsumi New Member

    By reflex we mean an unscripted random attack. The way we train and grade is for the defender to face away from the instructor and the attack is signalled vai hand signals to the attacker. They attack with no warning. Locks are applied to the point where the joint will break and there is pain. Have much further can you test this type of action? Throws are done with force and speed. The attacker falls and is safe due to their training in how to fall. People in the street do not usually know how to fall and are usually thrown onto much harder surfaces. Do I need to pound my partner into the ground to know that it is going to hurt. I always remember that it is their turn next. We ALWAYS finish with a lock or a strike after throwing just to make sure they are not going to get up.

    As Dropbear has said ju jutsu and certainly the Tsutsumi style is trained as self defence and we wait for the attacker to commit themselves and we react to that. If we attack we but ourselves at risk of the other person defending our attacking move.

    Greg Palmer

    Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu
     
  19. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    But how do you know "a" would happen if you didn't do "b"? Maybe sometimes it would, but how often?
     
  20. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    You're right, I don't know for sure until I actually do it in a 100% real situation.

    However, I am confident sure it will work, because so long as my arm and his arm are in the right places, when I slide to the floor, all my weight is on his elbow joint. Anyone who has felt this technique done right, and even tried to stay upright will know that you're arm will break. You don't need to test it until it does just to prove it.

    And I think the small chance of it not working is worth not breaking the arms of all my training partners.

    If it does fail then I change to a different technique.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2006

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