Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by runcai, Feb 8, 2016.

  1. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    From a recent post on another forum
  2. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Which one?
  3. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Many years ago, I have always believed that I should

    - use punch to set up throw,

    One day my friend said, "If I can retreat faster than your advance, your strategy will never work". His question had bothered me for a long time. He was right, if he can retreat faster than my advance, there is no way that I can touch him and throw him.

    I then realized that I should

    - use punch to set up clinch,
    - use clinch to set up throw,

    IMO, the "clinch" model is much better than the "attach" model. May be this is the major difference between how a grappler think vs. how a striker think.

    If you "clinch" yourself on your opponent's body, when he retreats, he will pull your body with him. "Push" doesn't work in this model.


    If you "attach" yourself on your opponent's body, when he retreats, your body and his body may separate apart. "Push" may work in this model.

    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  4. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Some anonymous bloke on the internet says he has a book by some anonymous bloke who reckons that is not the same as studies have been done.

    It's not even close is it?

    I'd be genuinely interested to hear any research, but please, can we be accurate?

  5. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I really agree with this.
  6. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    People confuse training and fighting all the time in IMA.. Think about it. Being attentive to your breath is a meditation technique it puts you in a meditative state. Which is like the opposite of what you want in fighting or similar activity. The technique is used in lots of traditions. For training slowly or statically being in a meditative state is ok, but it depends exactly what you're doing as to what you will pay attention to or not.

    If you are practicing reverse breathing for example, then some attention to how you breath is needed - that's not necessarily the same as having your mind on your breath. I don't know about studies and all the rest, but intuitively I'm pretty sure that my performance will decline if I'm more focused inside my body/ breath rather than the real task at hand. Most of the time breathing should be left to happen. That's why you train.. On the other hand there are breathing techniques you can use, once you train learn them that can help with your stamina/ endurance. You can employ these, but that doesn't mean you will put your mind on your breath when you do so - it is a breathing pattern that you can use like a tool, instead of a meditation technique.

    When you want to fight you want to be alert and aware of what's around you, and aware and alert of what you are doing.
    You don't want your mind on your bodies energy/qi (kinaesthetic feeling) either whilst training (or fighting). Yi/ intention does the work for you.

    This 'lesson' is even in the tai chi classics. Which says something like "focusing on it will cause the qi to stagnate" - or something along those lines. Whilst instructing to use Yi. It's a well quoted line.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  7. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Well it's not like the IMA don't make use of things like wrapping, grabbing(pulls) and controls. 'Attach' is part of push hands training, it has it's uses, but one of the rules is no separation - as well as no resistance. So if you separate that's considered 'wrong'. If your opponent seeks to retreat/separate you run him down, following/ hitting - whatever.

    Pushes can have there place as follow up to uprooting / 'finishing' as in throwing to the ground. There use in training can be misleading at times. But if you separate it's better to allow it and reset yourself/ go again or not as the case may be - IMO.

    We have fundamental differences in approach- as I know you want to instigate and go on the hunt or attack first. Even if it's to illicit a reaction. I don't have an issue with 'faking' to get a reaction. But I don't consider it real attacks. As a 'Tai chi guy' you commit to being the reactive fighter, the counter fighter, to essentially follow rather than lead - or in my opinion you may as well not really bother.

    It's good to learn and be proficient your natural style first, and be competent at leading in the sense of applying pressure too - while keeping sound defence. That's kind of an in between point because you can apply pressure with positioning, distancing, faking without actually doing any real attacking/ committing. You can use it to show openings. The trick here is to entice the opponent to attack - preferably in a way you are leading them to. So it becomes a game of following to "lead" them to commit.

    To what stage or what level/ role you can take a passive approach is open ended; Depends how good you can get at it I suppose.

    At some point if you want to enter the door of the highest levels, in IMA or tai chi terms (you may think or feel differently about this) - you need to leave you natural instincts behind and become more of a reactive/ counter fighter.

    It just won't be everyone's style and not everyone will be comfortable or capable of achieving it. Then it's a case of having strategy, tactics and techniques that match up together. But you have to be comfortable, willing and able.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I wrote this on the second page, and it sounds a bit tortured and I just wanted to clarify..
    Being vs. doing was the first thing I thought of conceptually, but I think it's clearer to see the difference as talking about something either from the third person perspective - where you detach and describe how something is (it's "being"). In contrast to how these things are done (taught, outlined and practiced); which is from the first person perspective, which is experiential. This was done specifically to help recognise various stages and provide a clear path.
  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Let's compare the following 2 different strategies.

    1. You stand still, wait for your opponent's attack, you then respond to it.

    2. You try to move in circle, toward your opponent's side door, and behind of him. If he has right leg forward, you try to move to his right (your left). This way, his left hand and left leg will be too far to reach you. You only have to deal with his right hand and right leg (1/2 of his weapon). When you do this,

    if your opponent

    - doesn't move with you, he will expose his back to you.
    - moves with you, you are making him to fight the way that you want to fight.
    - cuts in front of you and attack you, you have just forced him to commit on something. If "circle walking" is your giving, his "attack" will be what you want to take.

    Example of using strategy 1 - This guy acted like a sitting duck for "double legs" take down (because he is not moving).


    Example of using strategy 2 - Within 12 seconds, both persons have made 2 complete 360 degree circles. If your opponent tries to take you down with "double legs", his "double legs" opportunity will be reduced down to the minimum (because you are moving).

    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  10. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    This was accurate. First hand knowledge is best.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    And anecdotes are worst

    Is there a link to a legit study?
  12. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    So it is not actually a study but a sentence from The Classics?
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    It is better than a study, I would say it is supported by principles such as Mushin ("no mind").

    The issue I have is when statements take things out of context, like the following:

    So thinking about breath is bad. Well, how about actually looking a little deeper on the subject and just maybe it isn't about thinking about breath, but rather, what do experts do (practice) so they don't have to think about their breath?

    Just maybe there is more to understanding principles than the obvious. Just maybe breathing exercises are so you learn to not have to think about your breath? Could there be something to expansion and contraction, recovery and power in all this :confused:

    Oh another rant. Am I picking on 23rdwave? :mad:
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  15. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    The subject was on my mind after Tuesday's yiquan class. Someone brought up Systema and we were talking about their emphasis on the breath. Maybe too much emphasis.

    Although I have done my share of breathwork (what a word!) no one had to teach me how to breathe. Since I have a yiquan mind I don't know what I am going to do with my hands and feet let alone my breath. So I'll just act (and breathe) naturally.
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    When you throw 5 punches in a role, how will you breath?

    - Hold your breath?
    - Make a long exhale?
    - Exhale on each and every punch?

    In the long fist system, there is a "分段呼吸法 - section breathing method" that you can divide your breath down to 1/7 of your lung capacity. This is the way you train it:

    - inhale 100%, exhale 100%.
    - inhale 1/2, inhale 1/2, exhale 1/2, exhale 1/2.
    - inhale 1/3, inhale 1/3, inhale 1/3, exhale 1/3, exhale 1/3, exhale 1/3.
    - ...
    - inhale 1/7, inhale 1/7, ..., exhale 1/7, exhale 1/7.

    If you train this, you will always be able to control how much air that you still have in your lung. Also when you don't have chance to make a full inhale (such as your opponent's attacks fast), you can still do some partial inhale. When you throw 5 fast punches, you can exhale 1/6 on each and every punch that you throw. At the end, you will still have 1/6 amount of air in your lung (it's not a good idea to have empty lung during fighting).

    When I stand in front of my heavy bag and throw 50 punches non-stop as fast as I can and as hard as I can, how to coordinate my breath with my punches become a very challenge task. I assume it's just training. In combat, nobody will throw 50 punches non-stop.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Breathing methods can also be very tactical. We keep the lungs empty when getting hit in the chest to keep from getting the wind knocked out. When in a choke hold, we breath shallow to keep the blood pressure to the brain. When recovering, we expand to naturally inhale and at the same time keep the blood flowing to the brain. We contract to naturally exhale and focus the explosion through the target.

    IMHO, all breathing can be associated with real world needs to keep the body functioning under stress. I believe breathing exercises should have real tactical purpose to prepare the body to breath naturally while under pressure.

    Leading with the breath can be the starting point for learning to lead with the waist to create torque. To create torque, one part of the body must move in the opposite direction before the rest of the body follows.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  18. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    So what i take from this is that dragon Ball z, and the avatar could not be possible.
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Don't validate nerd rage. Just kidding :p
    My oldest son just took all our old Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball z VHS tapes we had in storage. I kind of want to watch them now. :cry:

    On a related note, breathing can be used to raise the body temperature.

    [ame=""]Meditation - Universal Antidote - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  20. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Well to be honest I don't think it truly matters generally whether the mind is on breathing, what matters is you keep breathing. Your mind will do whatever it wants, really. But you can control your breath with your mind, so it follows you can control various aspects of your respiration for utility.

    But that's not such a special thing I do it whenever I swim or jog or practice kung fu. To do it very well in a martial art or really anything else certainly seems to be a 'practice-able' thing. That includes relaxing oneself for sure, which most people can begin to do in a crisis by, of course, focusing on breathing. Many pregnant women today train to give birth in this way :D
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016

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