Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by runcai, Feb 8, 2016.

  1. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Never heard Karate, TKD, MT, boxing, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, ... ever use the word "push". Why?

    This is my concern. Only "internal" guys like to "push" so much. In the "pushing" model, the "yield" may make sense. But in both the "striking" model and the "grappling" model, the "yield" doesn't make sense. The reason is simple.

    - How do you yield a punch to the face?
    - When your opponent gets a clinch on you, how can you push him away?

    IMO, some "internal" system tries to limit themselves in the "pushing" model. It may be safe to train but it's not practical in the real world.

    If I have to fight a boxer, I won't let my body to respond to his jab. I want to prevent him from throwing his 1st jab. IMO, to respond to your opponent's attack is very conservative and risky. First, you have to be good in everything (such as you have to be good in boxing than a boxer). Second, you may take the risk to be leaded by your opponent and fall into his trap (such as to block a jab and expose your head for a cross).

    I don't like to respond to my opponent's attack. Instead, I prefer to let my opponent to respond to my attack, I then take advantage on his respond. This way, I can lead my opponent into an area that I'm more familiar with than he does. That will be my advantage.

    Here is a great example. From the way that my opponent stands, I can tell that he is ready to play the striking game with me, but I don't want to play the "striking" game with him. I won't even let him to throw out his first punch.

    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I think you are deliberately missing the point here because you are not a foolish chap
  3. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    I don't push anyone. But it's nice to know you are concerned. :thinking:

    When someone strikes me their forearms make contact with my forearms and the harder they punch the further they push themselves away. I keep my opponent at arm's length and try to control the space between us.

    See above.
  4. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    If you ask a question that you already know the answer to, or presume to know, then you are not asking a question. If I don't tell you what you want to hear the way you want to hear it I am being obtuse. When, in actuality, I am being abstruse.
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    No you asked a question and I counter-questioned it - quid pro quo Claris

    In any event the answer is identical - practice

    That's it
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The "push" gives CMA a bad reputation. I have trained Taiji since I was 7 but I'm still allergy to "push". The reason is simple. One should keep his friends close but his enemies closer.

    I got into a car accident once and I was involved with a serious argument. The guy tried to get back into his car. I got hold of him and didn't allow him to do so. When the traffic cops came, I was right. That guy had a gun in his glove compartment. A "push" will make you to lose control on your opponent. There is a good reason that BJJ guys don't "push". It's stupid to spend so much effort to get hold on your opponent, you then "push" him away.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  7. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Back from Tai Chi Quan Nei Gong to the Hung Family Nei Gong, this is in my opinion a very impressive video of internal training method. I got discouraged reading a couple of the comments on this video until I realized, some people may have missed that this is "a piece" of the Iron Wire methods, not the actual Iron Wire form itself. This video is more or less 'improv' from my point of view, a a good example of the unification of mind and body awareness, using Hung Fist as the expression. For the weight lifting crowd here, that is probably about 10-15 lbs per forearm/wrist.

    [ame=""]Philadelphia Iron Wire with Iron Rings - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  8. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    I only push when I'm being nice.

    Like your rhino guard, when the opponent strikes he "pushes" himself away. The one using the rhino guard is not pushing or striking but the opponent's own force can propel him backward.
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Their own strike causes them to push away? Let me know how well you get this to work against a knife or blade :confused:

    Wouldn't it be better to cause them to overextend and miss you or as a last resort cause them to collapse and break their own joints?

    Just saying...
  10. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    It's as if one was holding a swiss ball and the harder you punch them the farther you push yourself away. Instead of a ball one has to hold one's bao. When one squeezes the ball the body expands and the same is true with the bao.
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'm very late into this thread and I'm no expert on the things you bring up. However, I still have my opinion, good or bad.

    Noise comes from rapid acceleration and deceleration in a more linear plane. Quietness comes from allowing the acceleration and deceleration of what would seem linear movements to flow in circles internally in more three dimensional space.

    I don't expect I make total sense. Here is an example that might help illustrate. It's called leading with the breath. Start your movement in one direction while inhaling. Start your exhale before you change direction. Then start your inhale before changing your direction again. Your movements will be quieter and take on more of a circular motion.

    I've found the movements are more powerful too.
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Sounds like you are describing what I call long power. I use Peng Jin as an example for long power.

    If so, personally I feel long power is ideal for very close ranged combat, where timing is not a big factor. Long power technique tends to be overly complex, requiring sensitivity, etc., so long power works best when you have constant pressure/contact and don't have to worry about timing.

    Once combat moves out to normal striking ranges, short power techniques tend to be very timing based and thus are kept simple and straight forward to get the job done. Boxing punches, for example show short power and how important having good timing is. Boxing punches are not overly complex to learn if trained correctly.

    If I understand correctly, by increasing the distance (push off, bounce back, knock back, etc.) you are actually going from where long power is most effective to where short power is most effective. How is your boxing going these days? Just curious.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  13. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Pushes can actually be quite useful. You can use them to keep people from getting a hold of you, push people over, push people into things, trip them, create psychological separation/fear/anxiety, preemptively off balance people. Boxers train to push but they do it by shoulder check (which some Taiji guys do as well) and sometimes push exiting or preventing the clinch. Every time I've done multiple opponent sparring I've always ended up pushing people at some point. It comes up in weapons training occasionally and very often in escape drills. Like everything they have their appropriate use, at the appropriate time, in the appropriate context and the type of push and it's use changes based on that context.

    I agree they can be overused and get too much emphasis in lieu of actual sparring but they can be useful tool.
  14. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    I started to think about my breath while warming up before taiji yesterday and got out of sync. There have been studies done that show thinking about breathing has a negative effect on athletic performance.
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Usually it isn't the push that is important but what you push them into that makes the difference. Getting pushed head first into a solid stone column, for example, can really ruin a day. At some point the push becomes more of a throw because it is preceded first by unbalancing, and then it is a matter of throwing someone into something or someone else. IME.

    We used to use the push analogy to describe levels of opponents. The first level was the opponent that pushed and used striking. The second level was the opponent that used grabs (mostly pulling) and striking. The third level was the opponent that used misdirection and redirection combined with striking. So we would drill exercises against these three types of opponents. Of course, really, none of us were that good at the third level, so it was more drilling against the first two opponent types.

    Anyway, the differences between the three levels were harder and harder to differentiate as we got better. Rather than push in a linear fashion, what we did is use more full body power with foot work to push the opponent in the direction they were already going. This involved redirection to over extend the opponent. Rather than pull the opponent, again it became more using full power power to jam them. So in the end it became more about causing the opponent to both overextend on one side and collapse on the other side at the same time.

    The three levels of opponent then became: (1) Extension, (2) Jamming, and (3) those that could extend and jam you at the same time.

    Sorry for the rant.
  16. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    In yiquan we stay attached to the opponent. We pull ourselves to the mountain. And climb to the top.

    I focus on my zhuangtai (mind/body state), holding the bao, and expressing through the fingertips. I just respond to my opponent's actions or intent.
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I don't have time to think about my breath, but I had to do so for training. There is a reason why breathing exercises are trained very slowly. Once things go full speed, then all should go off of intuition, leaving the mind free to make the important decisions.

    Training breathing is just like training any movement. It is done with intent until it becomes natural. Training breathing does have some possible dangerous side effects such as raising blood pressure and possible damage to the heart. So my opinion is that breathing exercises should only be done for short periods of time (less than a minute and no more than twice a day). Beyond that, all breathing should be natural.

    The breathing should end up natural and coincide with recovery movements.
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I like what you said.

    What do you do when the opponent backs away, do you chase or grab?

    Combat can be described as something like how an accordion expands and contracts. Range closes, range increases, range closes again, etc.
  19. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Which studies, if you please?
  20. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    I don't grab. I would use an, attach, give him my weight and make him hold me up while I strike so he could not retreat. If he is able to get away I would follow.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016

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