Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by runcai, Feb 8, 2016.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    And IMAS was banned if I recall.....
  2. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Ya, that is what it seems like when you are training external, it does not take long to be on the same level as everyone else that has trained the same way.

    If you are lucky one day you will meet somebody who has good internal skills and you will feel like a white belt again and nothing works on him, then you will know that you are missing something really big and then you will feel like you are starting over from ground zero.

    Good Luck

  3. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Do you really think that everyone who trains 'external' reaches the same skill level quickly?

    What do you train?

    What are your experiences with what you call external and internal training?
  4. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Sorry to be harsh, but nonsense!

    Be careful when making such claims on here. There are many experienced practitioners who study both internal and external arts.

    I train both external and internal and am lucky enough to learn from many with excellent internal skills, but we aren't so separate or special just because we study internal arts.

    Everytime someone makes this sort of claim, they never can back it up when pressed to explain in details.

    What is different from internal and external arts- give details? Whenever I ask anyone this in other threads, they never come up with something unique that is so very different. So many times people say something and are given examples of how one exists in the other to some degree.

    But go ahead, and answer my question and see if you are different than those in the past. What is so very different from internal and external arts?

    Internal and external, the more you practice both, the more you find the similarities and that those are really artificial terms for beginners.

    Those who try and make their particular art so very different from other arts, frankly it is rubbish. And many times (not saying so in your case) it comes from someone insecure who needs something to feel superior over others with.

    Actually, please answer my question in the thread I list below instead of here. This thread is about John Titchen practicing with some Canadian MAPpers and I don't want to see that derailed.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  5. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Well you can think your movements are a mix of internal and external, but if you cannot separate them and show the difference between doing them with internal and without internal, in any technique, then you are just doing external with some internal by chance.
  6. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Learning tai-chi set corrections is not going to make you internal, if your teacher cannot clearly let you experience the difference between doing an application on you using internal and not using internal and there is a big difference, then he or she is just doing external and should not be teaching internal.
  7. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    This is a straw man argument and not answering my initial question. Don't make incorrect assumptions about my training.

    Straw man and an avoidance of answering my question. And very vague with no details. This seems to be a theme with your posts and the many experienced MAists here see right through your lack of substance.

    Define with detail what you consider the differences between external and internal are or I am going to consider your posts just trolling.

    You might want to read through this thread first to make sure your definition has not already been debunked here.

    BTW, HERE, where the thread has been moved. Not where it was off topic and derailing another thread.
  8. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    To make it simple, external does not work against internal. If you can apply your technique and the other guy can't defend even in slow motion you are not using external.
  9. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Just as I thought, you are trolling.

    You have no details or substance to your claims - none at all - nothing specific - just vague statements with nothing really being said.

    You don't get away with just claiming it doesn't work without explaining WHY with DETAILS.

    What arts have you trained in again? I have studied Yang Style and Choy Li Fut for over 12 and 13 years from a lineage that is well known - Plum Blossom International Federation.

    Your turn. What is your experience in both external and internal styles? You don't list any details in your profile. I would like some frame of reference please as to your experience.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
  10. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Your just a beginner, you need to find an instructor who can show you the difference , and then you still won't understand it or be able to do it.

    Start by finding some books that have some reference to internal. Then find someone that knows what internal is, not just theory.

    Teachers that know it and teach it are very rare, external is taught everywhere.

    Your not going to understand the difference until you develop a reference of internal to even have a dialog.

    Most people I meet have 10 to 30 years of martial arts and have no clue what internal is, years don't mean much if you don't know what your trying to develop, you won't stumble on to internal.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Again you are avoiding answering my questions. You have answering avoided all my questions with any details or substance.. What is your training and lineage?

    Start by finding books? :rolleyes::rolleyes: Did you really say that seriously?

    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
  12. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Come to a MAP meet and teach :)

  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You sound like a teenager who took a couple of Tai Chi lessons and read a Bruce Frantzis book.

    If that's what you are, 'fess up and people here will help you.
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Haha, everyone should be glad to be a beginner. The greatest masters were all beginners.

    When someone isn't a beginner anymore, they stop learning. I believe all great masters who spent a lifetime learning understood the duality between being both master and beginner always.

    If you really were trying to lecture others, you could say they are NOT beginners. Like I could say, Avenger, you are definitely NOT a beginner. :D

    Wow, do you have any idea what you are talking about? Firstly, external training is a mix of hard and soft. It's like what was posted before it is in the symbol for yin and yang. In yin there is a small circle of yang and in yang there is a small circle of yin. It is all in constant swirling motion. You cannot have one without the other.

    Okay, here is where I get weirder on the subject... :Alien:

    Now while you cannot have a pure external training (because it always includes a mix of hard and soft training), I've said before it is possible to have pure internal training. This is a long path into the internal arts, including medicine and healing. If not done with a clear goodness, the path can be very dark. Of course I could be just joking about black magic and the dark side. :Angel:

    In any case, if you are really talking about true and pure internal arts, then it isn't about just soft style training, but also the aspects of medicine and energy.
  15. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Now that is an interesting take on the subject. It is often traditional for Chinese Martial Artists to do Chinese medicine. My GM is a certified acupuncturist. But again, I don't think that that is only Internal stylists, I think many Traditional "external stylists" also did Chinese Medicine. I am no expert on this though.

    But pure internal training isn't the same as Pure Internal Martial Arts Training though, is it? If you heal without practicing any combat art of any type, that isn't Internal Martial Arts, which is I am pretty sure we all understood the implication of Internal arts to mean in this and similar discussions.

    Hmmm, I have a feeling you are not joking.............

    :topic:A highly controversial saying/ belief that is often debated in Modern Pagan Communities is "a Witch who cannot hex, cannot heal."

    My initiatior into my current Tradition also trained us to do what he called "endless purification" because of just what I think you are talking about.Lots and lots and lots of ritual and meditative practices.

    But this is a topic I am not going to get into in any depth here. So I will leave it at that.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Most people I meet have 10 to 30 years of "internal" martial arts and have no clue what "fighting" is, years don't mean much if you don't know what your trying to develop.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
  17. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Exactly.I don't come up with anything unique because many "internal" practices are -or were- utilized by so many Chinese systems that it shows the idea of identifying most CMAs as "internal" or "external" system is silly-even if some systems practice/depend on those practices more than other systems.
    A punch in the nose is a punch in the nose,true.Howe'er,I've yet to talk, for example,w/any Karate practitioners,including Goju folks,who have a clue about the physical mechanics I limit my definition of "internal" to.So the terms aren't exactly meaningless,but they do lead to a lot of murkiness sometimes.Not to mention some folks' self-importance.
    Oh,just $end me a check for two grand and I'll tell you all the "$ecret$".:rolleyes:
    I wouldn't say it's traditional, there are also plenty who didn't,but not uncommon to find those who confined themselves to simpler things like bone setting and first aid types of things. Not unlike some coaches in various sports today.
  18. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    How can ya not love this guy?!?!
  19. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Hey I've been using the toilet for 30+ years, and some days are still a lot harder than others :D

    Yet according to the schools of Nei Gong and similar places, they did in fact stumble on to 'the internal' (nei), after some lengthy period of study and practice (the gong part). That's the whole philosophy of Nei Jia/Nei jing practices, you study it by practicum, until it snaps into place (and that requires you transmogrify your body along the way, in the alchemical sense). Merely wanting or thinking about it really hard or reading a lot of books or listening to a lecture is not going to build nei gong. Even finding an actual, legitimate 'master' of nei gong is worthless to a student if they don't practice right, and there are so many fake or terrible 'masters' of nei gong to begin with, from what I have seen online and in the media. Tru 'internal' mastery seems to be not much more than a state of mind and the will to work out, more or less. The mysticism of it, while entertaining to some, is not a critical component of it. Indeed, few of the elderly who practice and benefit from Tai Chi, know any ancient Chinese secrets, do they? Nope just the state of mind and will to practice and with luck a decent teacher.

    So, how could you possibly learn internal gong without stumbling across it? Learning every technique and its name isn't enough. If the skill ever comes, it's because you practiced to the point where you can do something you couldn't do before, like the older folks who practice Tai Chi and maintain or improve their mobility. What is MORE internal than that???

    In my opinion, there's no secret to nei gong, other than learning training methods and getting your butt in gear. Nei gong can include anything from gymnastics to boxing (which are clearly 'external' too), which is why the term is so elusive. It's a purposely mysterious ideogram, to contrast it with the more self-evident 'external' Wai jia. So, if you try to say you've finally defined exactly what 'internal' is, that it's a set of super secret, complex instructions, and they/it can't be put into simple, non-cryptic lost me Avenger. I think 'internal' is probably the opposite of what you claim it is.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
  20. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    This entire thread was worth reading for this post alone.

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