Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by runcai, Feb 8, 2016.

  1. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Just to clarify......
    My point was someone else asked like that (mis?)information about WC punches with the bottom two knuckles isn't out there, but I knew it was as I too had run across it.

    But I have found SWC Sifu Ben's posts to be very knowledgeable and his lineage and training is posted in an open and forthright manner.

    I was not saying he was wrong. I was just saying I was surprised. I rather trust his information is correct, based on his posting history here and the way others with WC experience here value his posts too.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
  2. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Judge not, and ye shall not be judged

    What makes you think you are in a position to judge ideas in Internal Martial Arts, do you have any background in Internal Martial Arts? As far as I concern I am not even sure you know how not to use brute force in doing Taijiquan, but that is not my business.

    General Sun was also know as Sun Pao-Kung, and an article of his was published in the Pa Kua Chan Journal, Vol.2, No. 6, Sept/Oct 1992, pp. 21-23. It should be a translation by his student in the USA. This volume of the Pa Kua Chan Journal was devoted to Fu Zhensong (Fu Chen Sung), so it should be interest reading for anyone interested in the martial arts of Fu Zhensong.

    There is not much written on General Sun's martial arts except the Association for Advancement of Pak Koa Martial an Arts published a book on his theory and practice in 1993. He began to teach Baguaquan in 1966 at the Hong Kong Chinwoo Athletic Association, but he was very busy in politic until 1984 when he retired from politic and started to give his full attention on the scientific theory and practice of torso movements and recoiling in Baguaquan. Unfortunately his theories was some what limited by his background in maths and physics. He was Fu Zhensong's only private student and his adherent fighting techniques were invincible. In any case his research was carry on by Lai Shenhong and others in the 90's. Lai was a lecturer of anatomy at the Guangzhou College of Medicine, and he was also the student and son in-law of Fu Yonghui (the son of Fu Zhensong).
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Lots of words, little meaning as per usual

    And for your information yes he does have a background and he is also capable of doing more than copy and paste
     
  4. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    I am also kind of interested to know how two knuckle punch became three knuckle punch, as the term or technique of Sun-character Clashing Fist (日字衝捶) is well known in Hong Kong, Foshan, and Guangzhou. So, this is an interest case of Western contextualization. As I have suggested, try knuckle push up to find out the best position for your punch.
     
  5. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Do you have a background in Wing Chun, Internal Martial Arts, and Biomechanics?
     
  6. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    You see runcai, if you were paying attention, all these people you are calling out have been very open and forthcoming about their training and lineage, while you have not.

    The lineage you claim which still hasn't really fully been answered, according to google, is not WC. This is from wikipedia.



    You still have not mentioned your WC lineage. And your understanding of bio-mechanics has been refuted by someone who is openly in a medical profession where understanding of biomechanics is part of his job.

    Hannibal, Ned, SWC Sifu Ben, have all discussed their training and lineage very openly on MAP. It is out there on many posts for you to see.

    Your posting sounds like a bunch of cut and paste jobs, where these members sound like they are speaking in their own words. Giving me at least the feeling that they have an understanding of their training that they can express in their own words. Perhaps if you post from your own experience in your own words, it might help?
     
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Is that two knuckles or 2nd knuckle?

    Aiming with the second knuckle but landing with three knuckles is normal power punching with a vertical fist. So second knuckle is important.

    If actually trying to hit only with the first two knuckles, that means aiming with the pinky knuckle or first knuckle.

    It's part of explosion at the end of the punch. If you keep your hand in a relaxed fist during the first part of the push up and then make a solid fist at the end this helps to create an explosive punch. The reason is the first part of the punch is powered by the arm and shoulder, so the hand is relaxed for speed. However, as the punch moves to the target, the power shifts to the torso. The power is shifted by relaxing of the shoulders and hips while solidifying the fist and feet. This creates that explosive snap. When you explode into the target, the fist melds to the shape of what it hits. If you are aiming with the second knuckle, then often you hit then with the bottom three knuckles. So an explosive vertical fist push-up will end with the fist forming a flat surface on the bottom three knuckles as your fist melds to the shape of the striking surface.

    If, you instead aim with the first (pinky knuckle), you probably will end up hitting with the first and second knuckle, which with any kind of power is more likely to break your hand, mainly because of the increased risk of hitting with only the first (pinky) knuckle.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yup
     
  9. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I learned that from my instructor, who was a student of Moy Yat, who was very highly regarded among Ip Man's other students. I've also heard it from several of Ip Man's original students. And your wing chun lineage is...?

    Not to mention it's in here:

    ...which is normally just referred to as 字衝捶 (jik chun choi or straight blast in English), with the 日 being implied because 日拳 (sun fist) is the standard type of punch in wing chun, again with the 日 referring to the three bottom proximal phalanges.

    It's not a "western contextualization." It's what Ip Man's Hong Kong students, both indoor and outdoor, have said throughout the years. And that's a group of people who seemingly loathe to agree with one another.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    When hitting with a vertical fist, the most straight alignment for power is along the first knuckle of the pinky. On a hit you can see that as the fist melds with the target. Notice that when hitting a hard target, the hand changes shape so that the force is spread out across the whole hand (see 52 seconds in the video).

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwmONnfZIeg"]Taekwon Do board breaks in slow motion - YouTube[/ame]

    Since the hand melds to the shape of a hard target, hitting with a flat surface on initial contact will help to spread out the damage. This would be preferred against a hard target (like the hard bone of the skull) to protect the hand.

    Spreading out the damage goes against the idea of penetration into the target. So there is a part of your hand that is structurally the most stable, and that is the part that penetrates the most. Depending on the target area, you may want different parts of your hand to penetrate the most.
     
  11. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Good, show me in terms of the following:

    So who have you studied under?

    How long did you study with them?

    Where did you study with them?

    When did you study with them?
     
  12. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Until you clearly answer those questions, you've no place demanding others to - particularly when they aren't posting the tripe that you do.
     
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Search function noob
     
  14. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Moy Yat called it Yat Ji Chun Choi as in Cantonese.

    The classification of Yip Man's student should be private or otherwise, and not indoor or outdoor. There is only one of Yip Man's students actually made a oath to keep his secret. There is only one of Yip Man's students actually went through a discipleship ceremony.

    So who have Moy Yat studied under? Yip Man, but most likely that he was trained by Yip Man's student Ng Chan who was helping him in his time of difficulty.

    How long did Moy Yat study with Yip Man? Since 1957, and he is not a private student but he taught Wing Chun in Hong Kong from 1965 to 1973.

    Where did Moy Yat study with him? In Hong Kong, it should be in the Kowloon Bus Company's facility.

    When did Moy Yat study with him? Since 1957, Yip Man broke up with his students in 1954 over his addiction which he manage to overcame in 1962. Therefore learning from Yip Man during this period would have some short comings.

    Is the above a good format for lineage?

    Now, how do we verify his lineage?
     
  15. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Good, show me a format to these questions.
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    YOU provided the format, YOU answer them in that format spambot
     
  17. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Oh look the spambot can use cantodict but his knowledge on my sigung is weak and limited to what he can dredge up on google. Way to try and distract from your mistakes and lack of lineage. So sorry but you're still incredibly wrong about a great many things.
     
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Why did I hear that last part in Palpatines voice?
     
  19. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational right hook.
     
  20. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Not saying if I could choke someone through a screen like Vader I would do it but.....yeah.
     

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