Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by runcai, Feb 8, 2016.

  1. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Internal development is about capturing the feeling and holding on to it. It has little in common with external training. It is passed hand to hand not by repeating the same drills over and over.

    I was not saying to not have awareness. Awareness of oneself is what is key.
  2. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Just for your information the traditional classification of Shaolin and Wudang, or external and internal does not include Southern Chinese Martial Arts such as Hong Quan, Wing chun, Southern Mantas, etc. In my understanding of internal training in Hong Quan mostly took two stages. The first is muscular strength and then flexibility. Different breathing techniques are involve in different stages, for example waist belt is use for beginners with wight training etc. Most land practitioners of Hong Quan do not involve in flexibility training as those train on boats in the older generations.
  3. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    I will agree on the awareness part brother, but my experience with internal Chinese methods is clearly different from your own. In Hung gar, the internal methods are physical as well. Could you explain exactly what type of 'internal' training you mean that has nothing in common with 'external' because in the Hung gar curriculum, there is a lot of overlap. Awareness is a bigger factor in 'internal' exercises, but they are still fairly physical in nature. You will sweat during many types of Hung gar Nei Gong training at the least.

    So from my point of view you appear to be describing something different but maybe related to practices also considered 'internal' but differing from lack of a better term, 'exercise'. And that's probably an important distinction, that 'internal' can mean different things in different arts, and depending on the art, it can be simple (awareness) or complex (awareness + physical exercises normally thought of as 'external'. Some elements like 'awareness' during internal training seem common, and obviously important, but I've noticed a disparity with the overlap with 'external'. In Hung gar, they are the same thing at the end of the day and as others have pointed out, external/internal are truly just two different ways of describing 'exercise'.

    I will add this if your 'internal' training is only based on awareness and has no physical training element, it's probably not very effective training (from a physical development standpoint). Whereas the goal in Hung gar is to learn the external ways and the internal ways and sort of 'meet in the middle'.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
  4. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    But Hung gar contains a significant number of both Shaolin and Taoist elements. I'm not sure if you're confusing Hong Quan with Hung gar, and I admit I know nothing about Hong Quan, but this is probably another reason to point out that 'internal' training differs by style. Some styles are more co-similar, other styles like Hung gar are aggregates of various styles and so tend to contain a diversity of 'internal' elements. Meditation is an internal practice, but so are parts of the Brocade practices, and so on.
  5. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Without internal skill most cima training amounts to little more than mental Epiphylum Oxypetalum.

    Here is some of our yiquan training.

    [ame=""]Han Shi Yiquan, Andrew in Action Jan. 2013 - YouTube[/ame]

    Mod note- 23rd wave, You have been asked repeatedly by multiple members of the mod team to not post video's without commentary. "Here is our training" is not enough. That isn't the point of this thread, so it looks like you are just using this thread to post youtube links. State why you post a video and how it relates to the topic in the thread. MAP is a discussion forum. If you just want to just post video's of your training, do it on youtube. We encourage sharing of training video's, but as part of a discussion on the relevant topic.

    Also, please keep the language family friendly.

    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2016
  6. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Cool video thanks so not to belabor my question but are you saying that 'internal' equates to mental awareness alone (I don't agree with that brother), or do you admit there is always a certain balance of external/internal at any given moment (that's the Hung gar way). The exercises you're showing here have what I would recognize from training as 'internal' but they do have a little external element going on...and still this is only a selection of a handful of internal methods in an otherwise larger spectrum of what's described as 'nei gong'? I think that for many arts, each has picked up different parts of 'nei gong' from various locales, which may explain why there is so much in common between styles that contain nei gong, but also why there is sometimes a huge disagreement (which I typically think falls on individual instructors and how exactly they teach about these concepts...your mileage may vary! :)

    I guess that's where I see the difference in methodology, the external/internal schema is as depicted in the taijitu, where the internal is always somewhat external, and vice versa. There are no extremes, so no exercise is entirely one or the other. In your video I see (forgive my ignorance if I am wrong) a lot of internal with a little external. Which is to say, not bad at all. On the other side of the universe, there are the Hung gar Taming the Tiger exercises, which are very external, but include a little internal training at the start (specifically, the beginner Nei gong and Iron Body exercises as well as a few bits of the famous Southern internal set, Iron Wire). The Hung gar nei gong training cycle (at least as far as I was taught) is from a little internal to a lot of external to a little external and a lot of internal, and then back again. The 4 pillars of Hung gar then form the cycle of the taijitu (there and back again) in this way.

    Anyways not to agree or disagree but more to understand is all I mean. I was curious at your comment about "awareness" because to me that implied purely mental discipline. But clearly in your own video or some other more intensive internal practices, there is clearly a lot of physical activity present. Even when you are sitting completely silent and still in Shaolin Da jaw meditation, there is a tiny bit of external there (your breathing, and to start that training, you place your awareness on that breathing). Where I see the Chinese philosophies being useful here is the rejection of true duality....there is really no separate external or internal, or physical and mental, there is a blend of these things that describes Ultimate Reality. And how interesting that the physical manifestation of this in martial arts is also evident...neither mental or physical fitness alone is superior to a well balanced 'blending' of both.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
  7. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Here's a couple of videos I hope people find interesting, these are just some examples of the Hung gar form of 'internal' training.

    [ame=""]ä½›é€è“®èŠ± - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]Wong Fei Hung Iron Wire Form Part 1-4 ( éµç·šæ‹³ 1-4 段) - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]Hungga Iron Wire Fist - YouTube[/ame]

    Now this part is just my personal opinion, but I think one of the best illustrations of external/internal concept at work at least from the Hung gar perspective is Gordon Liu's introduction in the classic "36 Chambers of Shaolin". The opening motions contain some elements from Hung gar nei gong and Hung gar Iron Wire methods, same as in the first few videos (the first video even starts exactly the same way as the movie because it's the same basic Hung gar position). Gordon starts in an internal Hung gar method, explodes with external method, returning to his breathing and internal method, before unleashing external methods and so on and so on. People with some background in both types of training should be able to see that interplay between external and internal, I would think.

    But even compared to Mr. Chiu Chi Ling gymnasium version, Gordon's is a far more external representation of the internal concepts shown in the first three videos, which are more internal in my opinion, but external enough for you to notice it as a physical exercise. I think Gordon here also is not just training either internal OR external, his form is a combination and constant flux of both elements. His practice is clearly very external, and the internal is subtle, but should be obvious to many folks who practice the nei jia. But they also shift their roles back and forth in a very taijitu sort of progression, do they not? Also in Hung gar, you add weights to your internal practice methods as a form of progression towards external development. The number of weights Gordon wields is a sign of advanced development in the internal methods of Hung gar, but that is illustrated as external. The early student cannot endure the burden each additional ring until development has reached a certain level, and newly added rings increase the demand on both the mind and body. Very early on the awareness training is a critical component, later on, it becomes more physically demanding, which requires (and according to various Chinese beliefs, unlocks) new levels of awareness, and so on. And you can't mistake Gordon Liu's level of awareness in this last video for anything else. IT has to stand as one of the greatest displays of awareness during training I've ever seen on film!! :D

    Anyways, great discussion folks thanks it's always nice to see some different perspectives. This format seems pretty simple and common sense to me, maybe not others. It's really a lot of perspective and philosophy which is why I agree with folks like Hannibal, that's it's not necessarily useful to delve into Chinese philosophy right away, people simply won't get it without spending some time and thought. For others, it will just 'snap' into place, or they simply won't buy into it and dismiss it as mumbo-jumbo. That would be upsetting, because I think combining exercise and philosophy is a cool subject of exploration (as did the ancient Chinese!) :D

    [ame=""]36th Chamber - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
  8. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Fantastic post. I agree with all that you wrote.

    There are as many different paths in the cima realm as there are in the theological one. We are all trying to get to the same place but use different methods. One of my teachers likes to say, "Every part of the body contributes 1%." But the mind (awareness) contributes 100%. And this is done by not thinking. If you don't love Chinese paradoxes, I suggest you take up golf.:hat:
  9. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I think that's an internal bit.. Breathing is or was "Nei Dan". In the Taoist tradition work with just the mind is Shen Gong. "Working with"..

    If you are simply breathing I don't think you are working directly with anything "external" and the breath part itself is "internal". But I agree with what I think you are trying to say. I think that works when you are describing it from another angle as "being"(rather than doing/conscious action) - because you are not simply breath. When you think in terms of doing or doing work (nei gong) I think it helps if undertaking some sort of demarcation process. Ask what am I working with? This is more specific. If you look at it including wider aspects of the process happening, then yes we can see that for the breathing process and breath the body plays it's role as it must - however small. Same at the other end of the scale.

    On one side you have breath, mind, the other body (muscles, connective tissue, bones) in between you have the nervous system. For the martial arts I think the role of neigong should lie in developing breath and mind to stimulate and access (train) the nervous system to what you are doing/ trying to do externally (with the body) using a different tool or route than the orthodox physical cultivation, which comes at it from the other direction. Approaches, starting points, methods are many and varied across styles, teachers etc. Agreed.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2016
  10. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I don't disagree as such.. Probably semantics.. But I think I was talking about recognising the movement within stillness in that passage. That's a matter of being aware of what's going on; it's not focus, I didn't say focus. In fact I wouldn't even use that word in what I was describing in that passage. Directing the mind in the body to "do stuff" (yi/intention). The other bit is awareness or have some "attention"/feeling to what's going on. Focus sounds too much like concentrating on something. But you may be describing the same thing in effect.

    The modality of the training or "state" of you (your mind/body) is something that comes about by doing certain things I think.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2016
  11. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Ok, tell a lie. I did use the word focus in my post. But it's totally different context from what I can tell. For "focus" here see also "working with".
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2016
  12. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    I have posted six times on this thread and uploaded one video. So saying that I am using this thread to post youtube links is difficult to defend.
  13. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    I am sorry about this, as coming from Hong Kong I am sort of missing out on the changes that people are making out side of Hong Kong. Hong Quan 洪拳 is the same as Hung Kuan in Cantonese, Hung Gar 洪家 mean Hung's family, and most Hung style from Malaysia may call it Hung Gar in the UK.
  14. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Good, we are sort of back to breathing as a kind of Internal Training with the video of Master Chiu Chi Ling (2000). Please noted that he is wearing a waist belt or ban, and performed what I would called reverse breathing technique.
  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    That post essentially contained only, "Here is some of our training" and a video.

    We encourage people to post video as part of interacting here on MAP, and your inputs are very much valued. We do also require some commentary on the videos posted, something more detailed and pertinent than just that.

    The reason for this is, of course to stop people spamming videos of themselves or their club training.

    Now, let me be clear and up front in saying that nobody is accusing you of doing that. :)

    But I'm sure you can imagine that we have to be seen to be applying the rules across the board, or real transgressors will point to a genuine MAPper and say, "But it was alright for them!"

    Rather, what we'd like from people like yourself is more input and more discussion, even more contribution to interesting discussions such as these. :)

    I hope that clarifies things, if you do have any further questions regarding MOD action then please take it to PM with the person concerned as per ToS. :)

  16. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Thank you for the reply. I will go back and add some explication for the video.
  17. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The external MA will do the same. Here is an example. When you use your hip to bounce your opponent's Kua, it takes very little effort. You can drill this throw with your training partner 300 times and you may not even sweat.

    Last edited: Feb 17, 2016
  18. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    I think your missing the point Mr who, you are talking about practicing repeated techniques over and over, that is just mechanical manipulation of dead weight.,usally only happens when other person lets you do it or has no root.
  19. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Much appreciated, or just take it on board from now on if you can't edit that post any more :)

  20. ned

    ned Valued Member

    You seem to imply that there is no need for
    drilling or " practicing repeated techniques " in IMA's , which is not my experience ( and not to say they are divorced from 'quiet' nei dan exercises or training.)
    Ultimately both internal and external arts come down to "mechanical manipulation " unless you believe in mindpower/chi blasts etc.
    The main difference imho with IMA training is the conceptualisation of the bio-mechanics and body awareness utilised to create the efficiency ( i.e , the aforementioned smaller movements ) which can actually be found in all sorts of other arts.

    As for techniques such as the one posted by YKH only occuring when the opponent "lets" you or has no root , that is just plain wrong .
    Uprooting is a integral aim of taiji and despite the criticisms levelled at it , competitive push hands can demonstrate this effectiveness better than most
    compliant type demo's...

    [ame=""]push hand 80kg-up! å‹!!! é‡é‡ç´šæŽ¨æ‰‹,引進è½ç©º! - YouTube[/ame]

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