And the man himself! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gylCkAX0e8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gylCkAX0e8[/ame]
Yeah, CACC for CACC's sake would be amazing, at the same time though, I think it is only fair to say that CACC is being revived due to MMA.
CACC for CACCs sake is i think the wrong road, submission wrestling is already well established and offers a vehical for people from local comps all the way to world championships if CACC really wants to test itself thats where it should go
CACC and CACC rules competitions are being preserved to preserve the art itself, that is not to say that people wont be competing in other established competitions and rule sets
Agreed to a point - but those tournament are more of a "melting pot" or "common ground" for ALL systems BJJ, Judo, Greco etc all have their individual comps in addition, so if CACC is to be "revived", it too needs to have it's own proving ground so it can develop its own champions Thes are teh rules that Jake put forward with Karls guidance on many aspects (taken from www.scientificwrestling.com)
I'd have to agree to disagree, I think having a "home" or Catch specific set of tournaments is the way to preserve the art... much like a BJJ comp and then practitioners playing the No gi version of their rulest for submission wrestling comps. After all the Catch wrestlers can then learn how to play by the IBJJF ruleset- its a different style in of itself allowing fighting from your back, restrictions on the types of locks that you can do, the idea of 3-5 minute rounds etc. One should have the core art from which to branch out and thats what will take time if done right, after all a weekend training course and certificate do not make a Catch wrestler.
I see how that point can be made but dont agree with it. Its the interpretation of what I am saying that does him a disservice or not. What I have said has been interpreted that Steve is teaching Catch and he is advertsing like that. Which is not what I said or meant.If you have a problem with what I say then its me you have the problem with. I am saying it. Either dont believe me or find out. Or else its just assumption.
Come on, not a comment on anyone? Yea right. I stand by what I say however you like. Id say it again. If you dont believe me simpy try some training then comment. Half of those quotes are not even what I said just changed ,all be it slightly to make it sound worse for your post. A ploy used regulary on this here forum.
Your possible right but remember its me saying it having been in the same room training with him and him going over or demonstrating something and the words Catch as can coming out of his mouth to reference it or talking about it in terms of MMA. I stand by, that I can say, that is training elements of Catch as can.. thats my view. Your right that his approach is just fighting but he still references fighters and styles to a certain degree.
ok fair enough, but just to clarify he doenst have a ful time school correct? he has never fought MMA, he has had lots of challange matches in his gym against people he wont name, correct?
If a BJJ Instructor demonstrates a kimura and calls it a double wrist lock, does it make him competent to teach BJJ and CACC, or neither?
He does not have a full time gym for financial reasons. He teaches sessions on a monthly basis in variouse places and also teaches private group sessions or private sessions. Some of these private groups are and have been with other gyms with semi-pro and pro fighters. He has never fought in MMA in the official sense. Yes lots of challenge fights against anyone from any style who came along and wanted to. There is an incident that occured when he was training a group of MMA fighters where one guy, a pro fighter called Paul Jenkins, who at that time was one of the highest ranked MMA fighters in the UK said something he was talking about would not work in MMA, I think it was something like Bicept controll in the clinch and pummeling and after a few words were exchanged he asked the guy if he wanted to fight and he said yes, so Steve said are you sure, and the fighter said yes and he basicaly put him away pretty easily and quickly and not even at full pelt. At that time he was about 61 I think. That still wont convince some I am sure, but theres one incident and name. Funnily enough here is responce from Steve himself to someone asking baout his grappling credentials http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/archives_letters_grappling_cred.html
If the instructor creates a drill where its shown to work or it works and is used against other skilled fighters it doesnt matter what its called or where its from and it makes them competent to teach it. The proof is in the pudding not the lineage.
the CACC for CACC sake attitude that the rejuvenated snake pit has taken is also I would argue a luxury catch in its current state can't afford if it wants to survive, iv been on the roy wood website diargo refers to and its really quiet stand offish about people wanting to use catch to improve there MMA grappling or in tandem with there BJJ. Having no interest in these things and just wanting to revive your sport is fine, but to not recognize that there is an inherit connection between what your trying to revive (catch) and the rapidly growing new kids on the block (BJJ/Sub grappling and MMA), and to actively discourage participates of these sports from taking an interest in what you do only serves to make you look very out of touch with the current state of combat sports and oblivious to a potentially very lucrative market for what your selling.
how many pure catch wrestlers between the ages of 18 to 35 do you think there are ? I mean people who have never once stepped foot in a BJJ class or an MMA gym ever, not people with catch experience, not people that wen't to a seminar and spent a 100 quid on a certificate that says I am a catch wrestler, people who have absolutely no influnce on there grappling game but catch wrestling. Im willing to bet not very many if any at all. So with this in mind wouldn't any sub grappling tournament labelled as a catch wrestling tournament just be filled with hybrid grappler's, primarily dominated by BJJ and MMA stylists. It would in practise just be like any other grappling tournament that is experimenting with more open rules than the IBJJF, tournaments like this are already gathering steam within BJJ (the graice worlds), so in practise the catch label would just be a cheap gimmick. Granted the scientific wrestling King of catch tournaments look interesting but more because they have unusual rules than them being proper revivals of old time CACC, most of the competitors are still people with BJJ and MMA backgrounds. The same problem exists with the Roy Wood seminars despite his objections to doing so its hard to see how he wont end up teaching primarily people who after the seminar will be doing there regular training in BJJ and MMA Gyms if he hopes to be teaching anyone at all.
The phrase here is skilled fighters. I think you also have to seperate fighting ability and coaching skills. Can steve teach his ability without also using TRT and operant conditioning to promote his unique way of 'being'
Is there such thing as pure catch as an art? There are thousand of grappling influences on the formation of catch. Turn to the beginning of 1900 I see Hackschmidt, all the gotches, gama and the two polish lads. All from different backgrounds but all had influences on catch from their native wrestling styles. Catch has origins far greater than the snake pit and no real thing as "pure catch" It makes as much sense to have catch tournaments as it does to have bjj tournaments. It's training in isolation. Catch has guard prevention tactics, sak proved that so if they can deal with the guard they can deal with adcc
On a separate note: FUSEN Fighting fit has had a catch guy doing techniques. Rory somethibg (from the snake pit) an Ian Bentley I thi k
Actually he sounds like a guy who opened an open mat club like me and never grew out of that method of training. It's really not the ideal way of training. Unless you train out of isolation (and bring in new people from different backgrounds constantly) you'll never understand your weaknesses or expand your base. Chadderz proved that when he subbed us all with armbars in closed guard because our club was so used open guard and wrestling tactics (we learnt out leasson and brought in a judo guy) Guy didn't answer any questions About who he trained with. As long as he co stanly sparred with people with different tactics his knowledge is limited at best. Also a lecturer brought this up: if you claim credit for athletes that have moved on from you ~ you're probably not a good coach
