best Nak Muay of all time?

Discussion in 'Thai Boxing' started by AndyCTB, Apr 2, 2010.

  1. AndyCTB

    AndyCTB Valued Member

    In your opinion who is the best Thai Boxer of all time? Or at least who is up their with the best?
     
  2. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    So many greats bro! I have to say Pol Prapadaeng because he was my teachers teacher,also Poot Lor Lek,Hippy Sigmani,Samart Payakarun,Diesel Noi,Karuhat Sor Supawan, and Silpathai Jockey Gym are some of my personal favs:).
     
  3. Khun Kao

    Khun Kao Valued Member

    There are a number of greats to choose from. My personal top 4 of the last 50 years would be Adipej (sp?), Samart, Kaensak, and Sanchai.

    But some of my favorite fighters to watch were Samson, Singdam, and Ramba...

    I have an odd take on Diesel Noi. On the one hand, there is no denying his greatness and the impact he had on Muay Thai. I'm not sure if there is any fighter in history (apart from Nai Khanomthom) who had more of an influence on the art. He quite literally and single-handedly changed the sport of Muay Thai forever!

    However, the truth is that you could relatively accurately refer to him as a one-trick pony. It's just that his one trick was so devastating and no one was able to counter it. So in some ways, yes, he was one of the greatest of all time, but on the other hand he will never be known for having the amazing Muay Thai reportoire that the TRULY GREATS displayed.....
     
  4. Khun Kao

    Khun Kao Valued Member

    Fire Cobra...

    Your coach was Pol Prapradaeng, huh? While I don't know of him directly, my own coach (Kumron Vaitayanon, fought as 'Suriya Sak Suree') is from the town of Prapradaeng in Thailand. He was a fighter in the 50's and early 60's.
     
  5. Khun Kao

    Khun Kao Valued Member

    Oh... and its nice to run across someone else who knows who Silapathai Jockey Gym was.... He was unreal! There are 2 kicking techniques I picked up from watching him fight that I use when I coach now...
     
  6. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Saenchai, undoubtedly. It's a simple fact that most fighters, even ten years ago, didn't come up against many decent boxers and many of the current crop are simply far better boxers and far better at DEALING with boxing than their predecessors. Buakaw and Yod are both very well developed boxers, especially when compared with most thai fighters ten years ago. Saenchai really can't be categorised and if you ever see him fight live you'll understand that there's really nothing in the game that he can't deal with and I'm fairly certain that if he were the same size as Yod he'd kick with the same power.
     
  7. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I still don't think that just because nak muays have picked up boxing that it some how negates those who went before. There are still plenty of nak muays who don't train western boxing at all who are still top notch.

    Saenchai is good. No doubt. But he doesn't somehow sweep the board. Buakaw does well in K-1... but I somehow don't think he's got top Lumpini ranking... or for that matter even at Raja's.

    Don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of nak muays taking on western boxing... but many of the nak muays of decades past were as literally as hard as they come.
     
  8. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    I'm not discounting all the fighters that have came before - I just don't think that most of the fighters 10 - 20 years ago would have been able to deal with the quality of boxing that's been brought, mainly by westerners, to thai boxing. Most modern thai's have adopted this and it works for them. I'm of the opinion that competitors in any sport only continue to get better and better as time goes: the boundaries are always getting pushed and records broken. Bottom line is Ramon Dekkers wouldn't have been half as succesful if it weren't for his superior boxing skills.
     
  9. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    There have been so many great Nak Muay ovr the years that could box good,just check the records for Thai western Boxing champions/contenders,Samart Payakarun springs to mind as does Sot Chitlada but there have been so many,the 1960s style of Muay Thai was much more boxing orientated than in recent years which is one reason so many arms got broken(elbows in to the sides more).

    Saenchai(been beaten 70 times) is the best around at the moment but this time isnt the golden time of Muay Thai the 80s and 90s produced some great match ups,clinch work has been the biggest change in recent years which is why Saenchai sticks out more.:)
     
  10. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Hi Khun Kao,

    Pol Prapadaeng was my Krus teacher not my teacher,he was from Lopburi and the camp name was Jaremuang.

    Oh Silipa was awesome wasnt he,a classic fighter,the Jockey gym has producedso many greats over the last 50 or so years,a very technical gym.:)
     
  11. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Sorry but I don't buy the whole 'western boxing is the savior of Muay Thai'. If that was the case many of the nak muays who do come with boxing skills and enter contests like K-1. S-1 etc. would dominate the top ranks of Lumpini and Raja. Having attended at this point literally thousands of fights at both stadiums and seen many western nak muays who come from boxing backgrounds... I can safely say... having a boxing background doesn't somehow automatically put you in contention for a title.

    I've done a fair bit of boxing competitively myself and have still fight competitively in Muay Thai... and much of what I do in boxing simply doesn't carry over. The set ups can be different and what works in boxing to make it so effective is largely negated in Muay Thai because of stance, timing and technique. It's not as if before western boxing was introduced to the Thai's... everyone was punching like a bunch of daffodils... a heavy handed and accurate punch is still just as powerful no matter where it's come from.

    It's nice in theory... but if this was the case even modern boxers would be able to sit fighters like Jack Johnson, Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong and other boxers on their butts right? I mean what with all this 'modern' technique and such the boxers of yesteryear wouldn't stand a chance against that type of innovation. They might as well have been hairdressers.:rolleyes:


    Now that's a non sequitur if there ever was one. As proficient as Dekkers was.. I don't think he's the archetypal nak muay and not to mention he... even with his boxing skills... still had a hard time with some of the top level nak muays he fought.

    Sorry but I don't think things have changed soooooooo much because of western boxing that the fighters of yesteryear wouldn't have put some of the nak muays adoptive of western boxing on their ass. Plain and simple. It's not as if punching didn't exist in Muay Thai at all. Boxing has been around in Thailand... look at Galaxy Khaosai.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I don't even think that Dekkers was that good a boxer.
    He had bags of aggression and an evil intent whenever he threw punches but I'd not call his punching particularly "refined".
    Damned effective (which is what you need at the end of the day) but not polished (despite his nickname).
    Now don't get me wrong though...I'm a massive Dekkers fan.
     
  13. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I'm a huge Dekkers fan as well. But his background was all that particularly steeped in boxing. If one goes over his bio it's got boxing in there but it's nominal compared to his background in Muay Thai.

    One particular thing about Dekkers is his ability to use his rotational power in both his punches and kicks. His physique is interesting in that he's not got a lot of reach particularly and he's got relatively narrow shoulders. But his sheer aggression and gameness makes him bar none one of the most exciting fighters ever.

    FWIW: here's a great little interview with Dekkers.
    http://www.konewsmag.com/interview ramon dekkers anglais.htm
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
  14. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    That's it...rotational power...we practiced a combination taken from a Dekkers fight a few months back in Thai.
    Rotational power was what it was about.
    "The turbine from hell" if you will. :)
     
  15. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    I tihnk you're mistking my point entirely. I'm not saying that boxing is a massive advantage, that it's the saviour of muay thia or any of that crap. To say that it hasn't improved the level of thai boxing though, is naive. Most of the top level thais have a VERY good defense against boxing. A defense that they wouldn't have had to the same degree if it weren't for for western boxing being introduced to their training. Just because they don't USE western boxing doesn't mean they don't train to avoid it - something I don't think the fighters 30 odd years ago worried much about.


    This started to become a problem when they started fighting outside the country and to the best of my knowledge the first thai to really bring thai boxing to the mainstream in other countries was Chiangpeuk Kiatsongrit in the 80's. His boxing wasn't very good, he obviously hadn't trained much to defend against it and as such was caught out a few times because he just wasn't used to people throwing punches as a ccurately, speedy or powerfully.

    With regards to the western boxers. Have you ever seen the interview with Muhammed Ali when he get's introduced to Mike tyson for the first time? Mike Tyson was on the up and up. Ali looked pretty freaked out and I genuinely think Tyson would've gave ali a fight when they wre both in their prime - though there's no real point in talking about what ifs.

    Ramon dekkers may not have had TECHNICALLY good boxing, but that's not the point I'm making. The point is that he DID train his boxing a great deal, it DID play a massive part in his style and if he hadn't boxed like that he simply WOULDN'T have been as succesfull. I'm not arguing that he had a hard time with top thais etc - I know all this. but don't make an argument for points I never stated in the first place please. It get's me ratty when people put words in my mouth.
     
  16. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I'll respond to your other points later... but this one stood out.. so I'll have at it now.

    And since he spent the majority of his time training and fighting in Muay Thai... how did you come across the idea that he was so focused on his boxing. How do you figure the way he throws punches has everything to do with boxing and nothing to do with Muay Thai?

    What makes you so sure that he didn't punch like that because of his Muay Thai training? I don't really think Muay Thai is as rigid as you're making it out to be. Even if you've checked out the work of Panya Kratus and Dr.Pitisuk Kraitus they clearly break down that Muay Thai has punching in it.

    Muay Thai has always been said to have eight weapons in it's arsenal... and those include punching. Through it's incarnations and changes over the years... different weapons have taken on different significance as the old saying bears out:

    ‘Kick loses to punch, punch loses to knee,
    knee loses to elbow, elbow loses to kick’


    If anything... much of what works for boxers doesn't always translate into Muay Thai primarily because of stance and the chance to run bang into a knee while rolling under. Boxers traditionally had a very different sort of head movement than nak muays did. But they can be afforded that luxury as they don't have to sweat a knee or roundhouse to the face... perhaps you've had better luck at translating bobbing and weaving into Muay Thai than most have... if that's the case I'd like to see it.

    Or for that matter maybe you can post up some vids and point out specifically where you think something is clearly boxing and NOT Muay Thai. I'm more than happy to consider it.
    A nak muay with great hands is Anuwat Kaewsamrith... definitely Muay Thai through and through... is his punching so different than other nak muays... yes.. he's heavy handed and accurate... does that means it comes from boxing? Not so sure it does. I don't think Anuwat would consider his punching western boxing... but I'd be interested to hear your take on it...as he's a well know nak muay... and specifically for his punching ability.

    I think if you go back and actually read his interviews and bio's you will find that he spent far more time working on Muay Thai than he did on boxing. I think if you actually take a look at the punching techniques in Muay Thai you'd find that what Dekkers does is in Muay Thai.. it's not some add-on from boxing.

    Yes boxing is nice and has some interesting things to bring to your Muay Thai game... but you're making out that Dekkers spent some massive amount of time (eg. 'great deal') training western style boxing... when by his own admission his boxing focus was primarily his novice years... from then on his primary focus was always Muay Thai.

    It's not like Muay Thai doesn't have punching and not Dekkers is some shining example of western boxing in Muay Thai.

    No one is trying to argue he's not an effective puncher or that much of his game was based on his barrage of punches... but to sum that up by saying it's western boxing... I don't really see it.

    If you have any sources that show that he spent 'great deals' of time training in western boxing to shore up his MT game... please post them.
    You're obviously entitled to your opinions... but when you post them up as some sort of undeniable fact I'm keen to see something to back it up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2010
  17. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    You're still misunderstanding me mate. Ramon Dekkers was succesful because of his punches. Does it make it easier for you to understand if I said punches and not boxing? Fine. If that's what you need to understand it then replace "boxing" with "punches" ok?

    Ramon dekkers worked his "punches" a lot more than most of his technique and it played a large part in his style - evidence being just how often the thais gave him problems in the clinch.

    I'm well aware that boxing has massive disadvantages that they can afford because of the ruleset - again I never argued otherwise so stop putting words in my mouth so that you sound smart. At the end of the day, muay thai has been changed, and for the better, by the inclusion of boxing training in their regular training.

    Frankly man, I'm too confused as to what my original point is now because you keep making other crap up as if I argued some other point to begin with. In the future, how about you only argue the point I actually made. Its infurating otherwise.
     
  18. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    lol... relax tiger.

    I don't think anyone needs to argue to sound 'smart'. But what you put across is something to me that is questionable. Muay Thai has had punching since it's inception... I'm curious how and when you can define something is derived from western boxing and something is rooted in Muay Thai.

    Dekkers did have some impressive punching power... however how much of that is down to his aggressiveness and how much of that is down to his having trained his boxing to a great amount... as for his aggressiveness it's easy to see... as to how much he was training his punching and where that punching was coming from... for my money I stick to what I've read about him and what he's said during interviews... and that comes down to that for a short time in his younger years he was a boxer but that he quickly moved on to Muay Thai.

    Muay Thai has boxing... there are any number of camps in Thailand that have never had a western rules boxer coaching their fighters and they still produce fighters who can punch. Some more so.. some less so. Get to Thailand and train some time and you might get some insight into not only how the Thai's use their language... but actually how inclusive Muay Thai actually is.

    Good luck.
     
  19. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Muay Thai has always had good punching right from the Kard Cheurk days when punching was used more often.

    The modern day boxers all know every punch angle going,some use punches as a speciality(ie Anawat) some dont,its the least favoured weapon unless the fighter can hit hard(ie Superlek sor Issarn).

    That brings me to Ramon Decker,what a great fighter,great boxer as in Sugar Ray Robinson? no but a great fighter with a great punch,great chin and massive heart.

    When it comes to Boxing or punching in Muay Thai I think the weakness is punch defence once the boxer has closed range and landed some shots on the chin the Thai defence tends to be to reach out and clinch or and cover with the elbow to the chin,both not great defences against big punchers imho.:)
     
  20. Nibla

    Nibla Valued Member

    So I went searching for some vids of silapathai, and found this.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad4LdHTGXTM"]YouTube- Silapthai Jockey Gym vs Muangfahlek Kiatvichian[/ame]

    Can someone tell me which one is which? That style by the boxer (puncher? lol) in red shorts is quite interesting. Although ugly.

    Thanks.
     

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